>>> WELCOME BACK TO "MORNING JOE."
IT IS FRIDAY, OCTOBER 20TH. WITH US WE HAVE A POLITICAL
WRITER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES. ASSOCIATE EDITOR FOR COMMENTARY
MAGAZINE, DONNY DEUTSCHE IS STILL WITH US ALONG WITH WHITE
HOUSE REPORTER FOR USA TODAY, HEIDI, AND JOINING THE
CONVERSATION, NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER YA PIECE YAMICHE
ALCINDOR. WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BUSH AND
PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO ADDRESSED TODAY'S POLITICAL CLIMATE.
>> WE'VE SEEN CASUAL CRUELTY. AT TIMES IT CAN SEEM LIKE THE
FORCES PULLING US APART ARE STRONGER THAN THE FORCES BINDING
US TOGETHER. ARGUMENT TURNS TOO LESS SI INTO
AN MOSLEY. DISAGREEMENT ESCALATES INTO
DEHUMANIZATION. WE'VE SEEN NATIONALISM DISTORTED
INTO NATIVISM AND FORGOTTEN THE WHAT.
>> WE FORGET THAT CONFLICT, INSTABILITY, AND POVERTY FOLLOW
IN THE WAKE OF PROTECTIONISM. WE'VE SEEN THE RETURN OF
ISOLATIONIST SENTIMENTS FORGETTING THAT AMERICAN
SECURITY IS DIRECTLY THREATENED BY THE CHAOS AND DESPAIR OF
DISASSISTANT PLACES. A CHANGING ECONOMY, DISCONTENT
DEEPENED AND SHARPENED PARTISAN CONFLICTS.
BIGOTRY SEEMS EMBOLDENED. OUR POLITICS SEEMS MORE
VULNERABLE TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND OUTRIGHT
PEOPLE SOFT EVERY RACE, RELIGION, ETHNICITY CAN BE FULLY
AND EQUALLY AMERICAN. IT MEANS THAT BIGOTRY OR WHITE
SUPREMACY IN ANY FORM IS BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE AMERICAN
CREED. >> WHAT WE CAN'T HAVE THE SAME
OLD POLITICS OF DIVISION THAT WE HAVE SEEN SO MANY TIMES BEFORE,
THAT DATES BACK CENTURIES. SOME OF THE POLITICS WE SEE NOW,
WE THOUGHT WE PUT THAT TO BED. I MEAN, THAT, THAT'S FOLKS
LOOKING 50 YEARS BACK. IT'S THE 21st CENTURY.
NOT THE 19th CENTURY. COME ON.
FOLKS DON'T FEEL GOOD RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT THEY SEE.
THEY DON'T FEEL AS IF OUR PUBLIC LIFE REFLECTS OUR BEST.
INSTEAD OF OUR POLITICS REFLECTING OUR VALUES, WE'VE GOT
POLITICS INFECTING OUR COMMUNITIES.
>> I HAVEN'T BEEN COMMENTING A LOT ON POLITICS LATELY.
BUT HERE'S ONE THING I KNOW. IF YOU HAVE TO WIN A CAMPAIGN BY
DIVIDING PEOPLE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GOVERN THEM.
YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO UNITE THEM LATER IF THAT'S HOW YOU START.
>> MICHAEL, YOU HAD A VERY GOOD UNUSUAL SCENE YESTERDAY OF MANY
FORMER PRESIDENTS, ESPECIALLY F THEIR LAST NAMES ARE BUSH.
DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THEIR SUCCESSORS IN A NEGATIVE WAY.
GEORGE W. BUSH FOR THE MOST PART BIT HIS TONGUE FOR EIGHT YEARS,
EVEN WHEN THE OBAMA TEAM ADMITTED THAT THEY RAN HARD, NOT
JUST JOHN McCAIN, BUT GEORGE W. BUSH, BUT YESTERDAY YOU HAD
PRESIDENT BUSH, A MEMBER OF THE SAME PARTY OF THE SITTING
PRESIDENT, AND BARACK OBAMA, OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT OF THE
OPPOSITE PARTY, BOTH ATTACKING THE SITTING PRESIDENT ON THE
SAME DAY ON HIS BRAND OF POLITICS.
GEORGE W. BUSH DEBATING BIGOTRY J LIES, ISOLATIONISM.
THIS SPEECH WAS AIMED DIRECTLY AT THE HEART OF TRUMPISM.
>> TOTALLY. AND, JOE, IT WAS UNUSUAL, YOU'RE
RIGHT, THE BUSHES DON'T LIKE TO DO THIS.
GEORGE BUSH 41 WROTE BILL CLINTON A LETTER ON INAUGURAL
DAY 1993 SAYING I WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE.
DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MY CRITICIZING YOU.
THE THING IS IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THIS, WHO WOULD HAVE EVER
THOUGHT THAT IN THE YEAR 2017 ANY FORMER PRESIDENT WOULD FEEL
THE NEED TO CRITICIZE THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES, AND I AGREE WITH YOU THIS WAS ABSOLUTELY AIMED AT
DONALD TRUMP FOR ENCOURAGING BIGOTRY AND WHITE SUPREMACY.
IT'S THAT THAT'S NOT NORMAL. IT'S THAT THAT SHOULD CAUSE THE
BIG DEPARTURERTURE FROM TRADITI. MODERN PRESIDENTS RESTRAIN
THEMSELVES. THINK OF JIMMY CARTER IN THE
EARLY 80s WHEN RONALD REAGAN WAS FOLLOWING POLICIES THAT WERE IN
MANY WAYS ALMOST DIE METICALLY THE OPPOSITE.
CARTER WAS VERY QUIET. THAT'S THE NORM.
BUT FOR GEORGE W. BUSH, ESPECIALLY, TO DEPART FROM THAT
TRADITION, YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW STRONGLY HE FEELS.
>> AND HEIDI, THIS IS ON THE BACK OF THE EXTRAORDINARY SPEECH
MADE BY SENATOR JOHN McCAIN. JOE BIDEN WAS THERE WITH THEM,
THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
YOU ADD IN YESTERDAY TWO FORMER PRESIDENTS.
IT SEEMS LIKE THE OLD GUARD OF AMERICAN POLITICS HAS WATCHED
WHAT IT'S WATCHED OVER THE LAST NINE OR TEN MONTHS AND SAID
WE'VE GOT TO COME OUT AS SAD AS IT IS AND REAFFIRM WHAT AMERICA
IS. REAFFIRM OUR VALUES AND THE BEST
OF THE COUNTRY. THEY'VE ALL DONE THAT SEEMINGLY
ALMOST IN CONCERT OVER THE LAST WEEK OR SO.
>> WHEN YOU TICK THROUGH ALL THE NAMES AND TALK ABOUT TWO FORMER
PRESIDENTS IN ONE WEEK, ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR AND RESPECTED
SENATORS IN JOHN McCAIN, IN HIS OWN WAY TRUMP IS UNIING PEOPLE,
AND I THINK THE WAY TO LOOK AT THIS IS THESE AS SENIOR
STATESMEN ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTALS OF DEMOCRACY.
THAT GEORGE BUSH WHO SAT THROUGH SO MUCH DURING THE CAMPAIGN WITH
HIS BROTHER BEING RIDICULED AND HIS OWN POLICIES BEING
CRITICIZED WOULD CHOOSE THIS MOMENT TO SPEAK OUT, AND AS
SOMEONE WHO COVERED BUSH, I CAN KIND OF UNDERSTAND, PERHAPS,
SOME OF THE EMOTIONS BEHIND THIS, BECAUSE IF YOU ALL
REMEMBER, PRIOR TO 9/11, WHAT GEORGE BUSH WANTED TO DO WITH
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS TO TAKE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO THE
NEXT -- INTO THE NEXT CENTURY, TO -- BY STARTING OUT BY
APPEALING TO MEXICO. THAT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TRIPS
HE MADE WAS TO GO DOWN THERE AND MAKE CLEAR THAT THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY WAS GOING TO BE A BIG TENT PARTY, AND WELCOME ALL.
HE SAW A CONNECTION THERE, PERHAPS EVEN ON A RELIGIOUS
LEVEL THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE OF FAITH.
GEORGE BUSH WAS THE PERSON WHO AFTER 9/11 THEN WENT TO THAT
MOSQUE IN WASHINGTON AND MADE CLEAR THAT WHATEVER KIND OF
HATEFUL TENDENCIES MAY HAVE BEEN SIMMERING UNDERNEATH AND MAY
HAVE BEEN DIRECTED AT AMERICAN MUSLIMS, THAT THAT WAS KEPT
UNDER WRAPS. THAT HE SHOULD NOW VIEW DONALD
TRUMP POTENTIALLY AS SOMEONE WHO CAME AND KICKED THAT OVER, AND
UNLEASHED SOME OF THAT HATEFUL RHETORIC THAT WE'RE NOW SEEING.
>> JOE, CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?
IT'S A SOBERING THEORY. OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SEEING ALL THESE
GREAT LEADERS COME FORWARD IN UNITING.
WHAT SCARES ME IS IT GIVES TRUMP THE OPPORTUNITY TO BLANKET AND
SAY OH, YEAH, ALL OF THE ESTABLISHMENT, ALL OF THE GUYS
THAT GOT YOU IN THE SHAPE YOU'RE IN RIGHT NOW, IF YOU DON'T HAVE
A JOB, OF COURSE THEY'RE COMING OUT.
I AM THE SOLUTION. THERE'S A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD TO
EVERYBODY COMING OUT AND PEOPLE WE RESPECT, BUT TRUMP WILL BE
ABLE TO WHITEWASH THEM WITH PROBLEMS OF THE PAST.
OF COURSE THEY'RE SPEAKING OUT THIS WAY.
>> HE COULD DO THAT. I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
NOW IS FOR PEOPLE THAT ONCE SUPPORTED DONALD TRUMP WHO ALSO
VOTED FOR GEORGE W. BUSH TWICE OR MAYBE PEOPLE THAT VOTED FOR
DONALD TRUMP BUT VOTED FOR BARACK OBAMA TWICE, AND THERE'S
CERTAINLY A LOT OF THEM IN THE UPPER MIDWEST.
THEY'LL LOOK AT THE MEN THEY VOTED FOR TWICE, MEN THEY
RESPECTED AND SAY WAIT A SECOND, MAYBE THEY'RE ONTO SOMETHING.
AND NOAH, EVERY TIME THAT I -- MY RETWEETS THESE DAYS ARE
USUALLY OF WRITERS LIKE YOU AND JOHN PADORITZ AND OTHERS, NOAH,
THAT ARE WELL KNOWN CONSERVATIVES, PEOPLE THAT HAVE
A CONSE CONSERVATIVE FOLLOWING CONTINUE TO BE SKEPTICAL OF WHAT
DONALD TRUMP IS DOING TO CONSERVATISM, THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY AND THE NATION AS A WHOLE. DON'T YOU SUSPECT THAT GEORGE W.
BUSH COMING OUT WILL AT LEAST SEND A SIGNAL TO SOME
TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS THAT MAYBE IT'S NOT JUST THOSE
TALKING HEADS ON TV? MAYBE THIS GUY IS DISCONNECTING
US FROM WHAT MADE US -- MADE THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT THE
CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT. >> I WISH IT WOULD.
I'M A LITTLE SKEPTICAL. GEORGE W. BUSH RECEIVED A LOT OF
CRITICISM FROM CONSERVATIVES ON A VARIETY OF ISSUES.
COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM RANG IN THE EARS OF SPENDING.
YOU'RE ALREADY SEEING FROM TRUMP SUPPORTERS THAT THIS SPEECH,
THEY ARE CONFLATING IT WITH IMMIGRATION REFORM.
THEY'RE SAYING A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP IS WHAT GEORGE
BUSH'S LEGACY WAS SUPPOSED TO BE.
THAT'S A CON FLAGS OF ISSUES AND PEOPLE NEED TO SAY YOU REMEMBER
JOURNAL KUREAL, THE MUSLIM DATABASE, REMEMBER HOW WE SAD A
SELECTIVE MEMORY ABOUT DAVID DUKE?
AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT ME TO DENOUNCE GROUPS I WOULDN'T KNOW
ANYTHING BEING THE KKK. IT'S NOT AS THOUGH THE NAZI
SYMPATHIZERS CAME FROM NOWHERE. THIS HAPPENED OVER THE COURSE OF
A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, AND IT WAS INSPIRED AND LEGITIMIZED
FROM SOMEWHERE, AND WE NEED TO BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT THAT IS IN
SERIOUS TERMS. THIS ISN'T ABOUT IMMIGRATION OR
THE BORDER. THIS IS ABOUT RHETORIC,
SENTIMENT, ABOUT WHAT THE COUNTRY MEANS.
>> YAMICHE, THERE'S ALSO THE EFFORT BY GENERAL KELLY
YESTERDAY TO ADDRESS THE OTHER ISSUE THAT HAS JUST BEEN SO
STUNNINGLY SAD GIVEN THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION.
THAT IS THE GOLD STAR FAMILIES AND HOW THEY'RE TREATED AT THEIR
TIME OF NEED. DO YOU THINK THE FORMER
PRESIDENTS' WORDS HURT OR HELP JOHN KELLY TO HELP PRESIDENT
TRUMP DO HIS JOB AND EDUCATECAT HIM?
>> I THINK JOHN KELLY IN SOME WAYS ECHO WHAT GEORGE BUSH SAID
AND BARACK OBAMA. THERE WERE SACRED VALUES THAT
AMERICANS THOUGHT THERE WERE THINGS -- THAT WERE SACRED.
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT JOHN KELLY'S SPEECH, TALKING ABOUT
WOMEN AND THE ARMY, THE ISSUE HERE, OF COURSE, IS THAT I
INTERVIEWED THEM. I ACTUALLY GOT IN TOUCH WITH THE
MOTHER OF SERGEANT JOHNSON. WE WERE EXCHANGING FACEBOOK
MESSAGES. WHAT SHE TOLD ME WAS THAT SHE
WAS BACKING THE CONGRESSWOMAN'S VERSION OF THE EVENTS.
I THINK WHAT'S IMPORTANT THERE IS WHILE GENERAL KELLY BACKED UP
HIS BOSS AND SAID I SUPPORT THE WAY PRESIDENT TRUMP DID THIS, HE
SAID HE WAS TRYING AND ESSENTIALLY FAILING TO BE
EMPATHETIC TO THIS FAMILY. HE DIDN'T MENTION THE FACT THAT
THE GOLD STAR FAMILY THEMSELVES ALSO FELT DISRESPECTED AND THAT
THE SOLDIER'S MOTHER APART FROM THE CONGRESSWOMAN HAD REAL
ISSUES WITH THE WAY THE PRESIDENT SPOKE TO SERGEANT
JOHNSON'S WIDOW. HE DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THAT.
I THINK THAT BECAME A POLITICAL MOMENT.
IT'S THE IDEA THAT WHILE JOHN KELLY, WHO IS A GOLD STAR FAMILY
HIMSELF, IS TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENT AND SAYING THAT THIS
WEEK, THAT WE'VE IN SOME WAYS KIND OF TAKEN AWAY THE
SACREDNESS OF GOLD STAR FAMILIES.
HE DIDN'T SAY THIS COMMANDER IN CHIEF FAILED WHEN HE TALKED TO
THIS GOLD STAR FAMILY. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS
IMPORTANT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THE CONGRESSWOMAN
COMPLETELY FABRICATED THIS. THAT HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING LIKE
THAT. GENERAL KELLY SAID HE DID SAY
EXACTLY WHAT THE CONGRESSWOMAN SAID, HE JUST MEANT IT IN A
DIFFERENT WAY, AND YOU CAN SEE THE WAY GENERAL KELLY SAID IT
WOULD BE IMPORTANT. I THINK THE ALSO IMPORTANT THING
TO NOTE HERE IS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT GEORGE BUSH AND BARACK
OBAMA, I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE BOTH WORKING IN HOMELAND
SECURITY, AND THOSE PEOPLE TELL ME THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT GEORGE
BUSH AND HIS LEGACY, HE WAS A PRESIDENT WHO ESSENTIALLY SAW
THE BEGINNING OF A SYSTEM WHERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE
RACIALLY PROFILED. THIS WAS A PRESIDENT WHO HAD
HURRICANE KATRINA AND PEOPLE BLATANTLY SAYING THE PRESIDENT
DIDN'T CARE ABOUT AFRICAN AMERICANS IN NEW ORLEANS AND
FAILED THEM IN THE HEIGHT OF A CRISIS.
WE TALK ABOUT GEORGE BUSH, IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WHILE IN
SOME WAYS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CHANGED THE EXPECTATIONS FOR
PRESIDENTS, THAT YOU SHOULD JUST BE ABLE TO CALL OUT WHITE
SUPREMACY MUCH LIKE GEORGE BUSH DID.
IT WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT AN ISSUE FOR HIM TO DO THAT WHERE
PRESIDENT TRUMP STRUGGLED AT THE END OF CHARLOTTESVILLE.
PRESIDENT BUSH HAS HIS OWN HISTORY WHEN IT COMES TO RACE.
THERE WERE SOME WHO SAID YOU OVERSAW A RACIST REGIME.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT IT HIM, IT'S INTERESTING TO ME TO SEE HIM IN
THIS LIGHT, BECAUSE HE IS HAVING A SECOND LIFE, BUT THERE ARE A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REMEMBER THE FACT THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
DIED IN AFGHANISTAN AND THOUSANDS OF GOLD STAR FAMILIES
WERE THINKING ABOUT THAT. >> JOE?
>> WELL, MICHAEL, PEOPLE WHO SAID THAT GEORGE W. BUSH RAN A
RACIST REGIME ARE -- TO SAY ENGAGING HYPERBOLE WOULD BE
KIND. >> YES.
>> THIS IS A MAN -- >> I AGREE.
>> WHO AFTER 9/11, WHO HALF 9/11 WENT TO A MUSLIM CENTER IN THE
IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, AND EMBRACED MUSLIMS AND SAID --
>> ABSOLUTELY -- >> THAT ATTACKING MUSLIMS WOULD
BE UN-AMERICAN WHEN IT WAS PROBABLY THE VERY UNPOPULAR
THING FOR HIM TO DO. AND I SPEAK AS SOMEONE WHO IS
ANYBODY WHO WATCHED ME ON TV FROM 2004 TO 2008, EVISCERATED
GEORGE W. BUSH EVERY NIGHT. SO I HAVE NOT BEEN A POLITICAL
FAN OF HIS, BUT THE ONE THING I ALWAYS RESPECTED ABOUT GEORGE W.
BUSH IS EVEN IF I DIDN'T AGREE WITH A LOT OF HIS POLICIES, HE
DID UNDERSTAND WHAT DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T.
AND THAT WE ARE BETTER AS A NATION WHEN WE ARE UNITED, AND
ANY BIGOTRY, ANY BIGOTRY, EVEN AS HE SAID, THE SOFT BIGOTRY OF
LOW EXPECTATIONS IS UNACCEPTABLE.
>> I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID, JOE, AND I
THINK THAT'S WHAT MOVED HIM TO COME AND SPEAK OUT YESTERDAY
WHICH AS WE SAID IS NOT EASY FOR HIM.
AND I THINK WHAT HE SAID UNDERLINES THE FACT THAT WE'VE
NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE IN HISTORY.
JOE, THERE ARE FIVE FORMER PRESIDENTS LIVING RIGHT NOW.
HOW MANY OF THEM DOES DONALD TRUMP HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP
WITH? ZERO.
WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT BEFORE IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
AND I THINK DONNY IS RIGHT. THAT HE WILL USE THAT AS A FOIL.
I THINK IT DOES SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PRESIDENCY AND WHAT
GEORGE W. BUSH WAS BASICALLY, ESSENTIALLY SAYING WAS DONALD
TRUMP MAY BE TRYING TO SUGGEST HE'S PART OF SOME GREAT MODERN
HISTORICAL CURRENT IN HISTORY THAT'S LEGITIMATE.
WHAT HE WAS BASICALLY SAYING YESTERDAY WAS THAT ABSOLUTELY
WRONG. DONALD TRUMP AND THE PEOPLE WHO
ENCOURAGE HIM AND THE PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACY AND
BIGOTRY, THEY ARE FRINGE AND HAVE TO BE CALLED THAT.
THAT'S SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN RECENT TIMES.
>> AND NICK, I'M CURIOUS. I WANT TO GET YOUR OPINION ON
WHAT DONNY DEUTSCHE ASKED EARLIER ABOUT WHETHER YESTERDAY
WAS A POSITIVE OR SOMETHING TRUMP WOULD USE.
FOR ME, AND MAYBE I'M OPTIMISTIC, I THINK YESTERDAY
SHOWED THAT DONALD TRUMP AND STEVE BANNON ARE CLINGING TO A
WAY OF LIFE THAT WAS DYING 50 YEARS AGO.
THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL ALWAYS BE SEEN AS THE DEATH CRY OF THIS
EXTREMISM, THIS NATIONALISM, THIS NATIVISM.
WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU SAW GEORGE BUSH AND BARACK OBAMA AND
EVEN JOHN KELLY TALKING ABOUT WE ARE A NATION THAT ONCE VALUED
SACRIFICE AND VALUED WOMEN AND TREATED THEM WITH RESPECT.
THAT ONCE VALUED THE FALLEN AND THEIR FAMILIES.
HOW DID YOU TAKE IN EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY?
>> SPEAKING OF BUSH OBAMA, I HAD A DIFFERENT REACTION.
I SAW TWO MEN WHOSE POLICIES WERE IN SOME SENSE REPUDIATED BY
THE ELECTION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND I SAW THEM KIND OF SHOUTING
INTO THE WIND. PRESIDENT BUSH LEFT OFFICE
DEEPLY UNPOPULAR. HE PLUNGED THIS COUNTRY INTO A
WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT'S RESHAPING THE WORLD AND OUR
COUNTRY AND A BUBBLE ECONOMY THAT LED TO A HUGE CRASH.
AND THOSE THINGS GAVE RISE TO DONALD TRUMP, SET THE CONDITION
FOR HIM TO RISE. I THINK IT'S TRUMP'S PARTY NOW.
BUSH WAS FORCEFUL IN KEEPING A LID ON THIS KIND OF NATIONALISM
WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT. HE SPOKE AT A MOSQUE, BUT I
THINK THE FORS WERE ALWAYS THERE.
I THINK TRUMP HAS UNLEASHED THEM AND WE CAN'T GO BACK, AND I'M
NOT SURE WE WILL GO BACK TO A DIFFERENT TIME ANYMORE.
>> MICHAEL AND