There is
new intelligence
that's likely to rekindle
the unsettled debate
over the origins of COVID.
The US Department of Energy has concluded
that it most likely came from a lab leak
and not from an infected animal.
But to CNN.
Sources point out the department
only backs this new assessment
with, quote, low confidence.
The Wall Street
Journal was first to report on this
and reporter
Michael Gordon was
part of the newspaper's team
that broke the story.
Michael,
thanks so much for being with us.
What is
what is this new assessment based on?
Does it
add more clarity
or just to muddy the waters even more,
do you think?
Well, Jim, there's been a division
in the U.S.
intelligence community all along.
And previously,
as we reported, the FBI had asserted that
a lab leak
was likely with moderate confidence.
And several other agencies
were on the other side
saying with low confidence
it might have emerged naturally,
meaning it left from an animal
to a human being.
What's new
here is
the Department of Energy has gone
from an IG Gnostic position,
saying they don't know where it came from
to leaning toward the lab theory.
As we reported it, with low confidence.
So now you have
two agencies
leaning toward the lab theory,
one with low
confidence, one with moderate confidence,
and four on the natural side
with low confidence.
There's still a division,
but it's significant
that the Energy Department,
which has national laboratories
under its jurisdiction,
is staking out this stance.
Well, let me ask you this.
I want to play a clip
from White House
National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan
referencing your reporter
reporting on CNN earlier this morning.
Let's listen to what he had to say.
One of the things
in that Wall Street Journal report,
which I can't confirm or deny,
but I will say the reference
to the Department of Energy,
President Biden
specifically requested
that the national labs,
which are part
of the Department of Energy,
be brought into this assessment
because he wants to put every tool at use
to be able
to figure out what happened here.
Michael, I guess
one of the problems here is that
China has not exactly
been very cooperative in helping the U.S.
or the rest of the world,
for that matter,
get to the bottom of this
without that kind of cooperation.
Will we ever know
with any kind of certainty
where the virus came from?
Well, I certainly think
there's a potential to learn more.
And that's the view of
certainly scientists like Dr.
Relman at Stanford,
who have looked into that,
that they haven't exhausted
all the means of learning about it.
But one thing, Jim,
that I think is important
is the American public really hasn't
been told enough about this.
I mean, the administration
has done an intensive
intelligence community review, a
90 day effort.
And what happened
was they updated it recently
and a several page long classified report
whose very existence
was not known until we wrote about it
in The Wall Street Journal.
And the two parties that are
analyzing this as a potential lab leak,
the FBI and the Department of Energy.
They've not testified to the Congress
No one's heard directly from the FBI
or Lawrence Livermore
Laboratory,
which did an assessment on this,
why they come to this conclusion.
And I understand
there's an
imperative to protect
classified information, but
it would seem possible
to describe the logic of this in somewhat
greater detail.
What we have now is a 17 page
unclassified report from October 20, 21
and not much direct
exchange
with the
different parts
of the intelligence community
which are taking these different views.
I mean, on all sides.
I mean,
it would think that the American public
could learn a lot
from hearing directly
from these organizations.
Yeah.
I mean, I remember covering this
when this lab leak theory first developed
during the Trump administration
And I spoke with a senior administration
official who said, no,
we have to
consider this as a possibility.
And I remember Dr.
Anthony Fauci,
who was really the leading scientist
during the Trump
and some of the Biden years on COVID,
saying, no,
he really thought it was
a virus that came from a jump
from animal to human.
And we just are
seemingly stuck in this
debate ever since.
Do you think that this
is going to change the debate?
Where do you see it headed?
Well, first of all, Dr.
Fauci, now says and I heard him recently
that he's open to both views,
although he is certainly convinced
toward the natural view.
But what's happened,
Jim, is that initially the theory was,
well, it left from an animal host
to a human being. And that.
Why was that?
Because that's
how it had happened before.
But now we're three years into this.
They've never found an animal, not one.
And there's been renewed attention
on the kind of research activity
that was going on in Wuhan
and the safety conditions
under which that activity
was being carried out, which is not high.
And so the absence of an animal host,
no one has ever been found
and a study of Chinese academic papers
and more knowledge
about the kind of coronavirus research
they were doing there with an eye toward
finding out a vaccine,
presumably
has focused renewed attention on the lab.
So what we have now
is circumstantial evidence,
but circumstantial evidence
that is tending
to lean more in favor of the lab theory.
What we don't have
is anything
like conclusive evidence of one
or the other.
And I don't think the jury's out on this.
I think that certainly
the Congress
is going to be digging into this
some more.
But I think there's there's more light
that can be brought to bear on this
and possibly
more information that the government
has in terms of its analysis
that can be declassified
and made available
to the American public.
There have been more than
a million Americans
Americans have died because of this.
And we have a seven page
declassified report from October 20.
21.
People are really interested
in learning more about it,
even if the debate is going to continue.
You're absolutely right about that.
The American public has a right to know.
We need to get to the bottom of it.
And your reporting has gotten us
in that direction.
Michael Gordon
with The Wall Street
Journal, thanks as always.
We appreciate it.
All right. Thank you.
All right.
And with me now
to talk about this further is former U.S.
Ambassador to China Gary Locke.
Ambassador.
Thanks again for coming on.
We appreciate.
What is your reaction
to this latest report
about the Energy Department
now assessing Yes, with low confidence.
They call it low confidence that COVID 19
most likely came from a lab
leak in China.
Obviously, the debate isn't settled.
As we were just talking
about with Michael Gordon.
But this is interesting.
What do you think
Well, thanks for having me on, Jim.
It is very interesting.
And as he indicated, we need to find out
exactly how the coronavirus,
the COVID virus
hit the world
and caused
millions of deaths, not just in America,
but all around the world.
Our scientists really need to know
because quite frankly,
if it came from an animal,
we need to be prepared.
And we need to beef up our
our public health response
to the next pandemic.
So it is important for our scientists
to get to the bottom of this.
And if the US ends up determining
that this was a lab leak in China
and the Chinese government
essentially covered it up
and of course,
as we were just
discussing, we're not at that place yet.
But who knows?
The investigation
may go in that direction.
What should the consequences
be for China
and how do you apply those consequences
when right now,
as you know
from your background
as an ambassador to China,
things are not good
in terms of the relationship
between the U.S. and China right now.
Well, it's really
important that the
international health organizations,
which includes the United States,
work with China and all other countries
to set up protocols on communication
alerts.
Any time an accident might occur
or even if
if it really did come from an animal,
making sure that all that information
is transmitted
to health organizations
all across the world as soon as possible,
so that political leaders,
scientific leaders,
medical leaders, health officials
in each of the different countries
can make a
informed decision
on how they're going to proceed.
The part of the problem
that we had with COVID,
whether it came from a lab
or came from animals,
is that the Chinese
were very,
very slow in alerting the world to it.
It only came out from bits and pieces
from scientists and doctors within China
And by then it was too late.
And so we really need to beef up
our communication systems,
our surveillance systems,
so that all countries can act immediately
And of course,
we need to make sure that
however this happened,
we're prepared for the next pandemic,
whether it comes from another country,
whether it comes from animals
or what have you.
How are we going to be?
How are we going to respond?
Do we have vaccines available?
Do we have protective gear available?
Are our hospital systems up to,
you know,
have the capability to respond
to a huge pandemic?
Yeah, you're right.
I mean,
after all the terrible damage
that COVID has done,
one would think
that the world
is going to be better
prepared for the next pandemic.
I hope
you're absolutely right about that.
Let me let me shift to China's potential
involvement in Ukraine.
This is also a worrying development.
This morning,
the director of the CIA
said he is confident
that China is considering
sending lethal aid to Russia.
Let's listen to a bit of that.
And I'll have your comment.
Well, we're confident
that the Chinese leadership
is considering the provision
of lethal equipment.
We also don't see that
a final decision has been made yet,
and we don't see evidence
of actual shipments of lethal equipment.
And that's why I think Secretary Blinken
and the president have cited important
to make very clear
what the consequences of that would be.
Ambassador, what is China up to here?
Are they playing games?
Is this something we should take serious?
What do you think
Obviously, we need to take this
information seriously.
And and the president, the administration
has already conveyed
to China
the severe implications
were they to go forth
and make such a decision to provide
lethal aid.
But it's also important
to share this information
with world leaders
and have other world leaders
who have very strong ties
with China, whether it's India,
other members of the European Union
and parts around the world,
to also indicate
to China how unacceptable it would be
were it to provide lethal aid.
This cannot be simply a response
by the United States.
There has to be maximum coordinated
multilateral pressure on China.