>>> SOMETIMES HISTORY MOVES SLOWLY, OTHER TIMES IT TAKES 13
MINUTES.
MINUTES. ON MARCH 1st, 1974, THE FOREMAN
OF THE WATER GATE JURY HELD A
BLACK BRIEFCASE WITH A CARRYING
HANDLE AT THE TOP, AND INSIDE
WAS ONE INDICTMENT AND ONE
SEALED REPORT.
SEALED REPORT. SPECIAL REPORT JAWORSKI’S
DEPUTIES HANDED OVER A SECOND
BRIEFCASE IT WAS LOCKED AND OVER
STUFFED ACCORDING TO THE ACCOUNT
IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" AND THE
WHOLE THING TOOK SOME 13
MINUTES.
MINUTES. INSIDE THE SECOND BRIEFCASE WERE
TRANSCRIPTS OF TESTIMONY,
SUBPOENAED DOCUMENTS, WHITE
HOUSE TAPES AND OTHER ITEMS OF
GRAND JURY EVIDENCE ALONG WITH
WHAT IS NOW KNOWN AS THE ROAD
MAP, AND THE HOUSE JUDICIARY
COMMITTEE WAS CONSIDERING
SPEECHED
SPEECHED IMPEACHED RICHARD NIXON, THEY
WANTED THAT GRAND JURY MATERIAL.
SOUNDS A LITTLE FAMILIAR AND I
CAN TELL YOU A MONTH LATER,
MARCH 18th, 1974, ALL THE
MATERIAL WENT TO THE HOUSE, THE
GRAND JURY STUFF BECAUSE THIS
THIRD BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, THE
JUDICIARY WAS BACKING UP ANOTHER
BRANCH OF GOVRT,ERNMENT, THE
CONGRESS, SPECIFICALLY THE JUDGE
ORDERING THE MATERIALS TO GO TO
THE HOUSE WHICH MEANS THAT ORDER
HAS THE FORCE OF LAW.
THE JUDGE RULING THAT BASED ON
THE CONTENTS, THERE WAS REALLY
NO QUESTION REGARDING THEIR
MATERIALITY TO THE HOUSE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE’S
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE’S INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. THE ECHOES ARE IN THE NEW
FILINGS WE HAVE BEEN REPORTING
ON.
ON. CONGRESS INVOKING ONE OF ITS
STRONGEST AUTHORITIES IN
SEPARATION OF POWER, A CHECK ON
AN EXECUTIVE TO PRY LOOSE THE
YES, GRAND JURY MATERIAL FROM
THE MUELLER REPORT.
NOW, THAT DOESN’T MEAN IT’S
EASY.
EASY. THE SO CALLED ROAD MAP THAT WAS
STUFFED INSIDE THAT BRIEFCASE
AND PRESENTED TO JUDGE IN 74.
IT TOOK 44 YEARS BEFORE IT WAS
UNSEALED AND AFTER A S.W.A.T
TEAM WENT TO GET T THE FEDERAL
JUDGE WHO ORDERED THE ROAD MAP
TO BE UNSEALED IS THE SAME
FEDERAL JUDGE THE HOUSE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE APPEALED TO
TODAY IN THIS NEWFOUND QUEST TO
GET GRAND JURY MATERIAL FOR THE
MUELLER CASE.
MUELLER CASE. THERE ARE NOTABLE SIMILARITIES
HERE AS WELL AS SOME DIFFERENCES
AND HERE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND
THEM IS A MEMBER OF THE S.W.A.T
TEAM THAT GOT THAT WATERGATE
ROAD MAP ULTIMATELY UNSEALED,
JOINED BY LAW FAIR BEN WITTIS
AND JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S.
ATTORNEY.
ATTORNEY. GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.
>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> HEY, ARI.
>> HEY, THERE.
SO BEN, LET’S START WITH YOU,
YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING
THE ROAD MAP UNSEALED FOR THE
PUBLIC.
PUBLIC. IT DIDN’T TAKE FOUR DECADES FOR
THE JUDGE TO TURN OVER THE GRAND
JURY EVIDENCE SO WALK US THROUGH
HOW YOU SEE ALL OF THIS.
>> RIGHT SO AS YOU SAID IN YOUR
INTRODUCTION, THERE’S SOME
SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITIES.
SUBSTANTIAL SIMILARITIES. THERE ARE ALSO SOME IMPORTANT
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THIS
SITUATION AND THE UNSEALING OF
THE ROAD MAP, SO THE BIGGEST
DIFFERENCE IS THAT IN THE CASE
OF THE ORIGINAL ROAD MAP, IT WAS
THE PROSECUTOR THAT WANTED TO
TURN IT OVER TO THE CONGRESS AND
TO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
AND THE HOUSE JUDICIARY
COMMITTEE SAID, SURE, GIVE IT TO
US.
US. IT’S RELEVANT TO OUR IMPEACHMENT
INQUIRY.
INQUIRY. HERE YOU HAVE A SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT SITUATION WHERE THE
PROSECUTOR WANTED TO GIVE THEM
EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE STUFF THEY
WANTED TO REDACT, AND THEY HAVE
NO PARTICULAR -- THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT HAS NO PARTICULAR
INTEREST IN TURNING OVER THE
SEALED GRAND JURY MATERIAL IN
HERE, AND SO I DON’T THINK YOU
WOULD HAVE IN THIS SITUATION THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WOULD REALLY
RESIST THE PRODUCTION OF THAT
MATERIAL, I THINK, IN ALL
LIKELIHOOD THAT THE COMMITTEE IS
ASKING FOR.
ASKING FOR. ON THE OTHER HAND, AS YOU POINT
OUT, THERE ARE SOME REAL
SIMILARITIES HERE AND ONE OF
THEM GOT MORE SIMILAR TODAY WHEN
THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
AND THE HOUSE LEADERSHIP SAID
HEY, I KNOW WE HAVEN’T CALLED
THIS AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, BUT
IT KIND OF IS AN IMPEACHMENT
INVESTIGATION AND THAT ACTUALLY
HAS LEGAL SIGNIFICANCE BECAUSE
THE REASON THE DC CIRCUIT COURT
OF APPEALS ALLOWED THAT
TRANSMISSION IN 1974 WAS THAT
THERE WAS AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY
GOING ON AND SO BY SITUATING THE
CURRENT REQUEST AS PART OF AN
EXPERIMENT INVESTIGATION, THE
DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP MAKES IT
MORE SIMILAR TO THE PROCEEDING
THAT TOOK PLACE IN JUDGE
SERIKA’s COURTROOM.
SERIKA’s COURTROOM. >> THIS IS A CLEARLY STRONG
PRECEDENT TO SUPER SIZE THE
REQUEST THAT CONGRESS ALREADY
CAN MAKE.
CAN MAKE. JOYCE, THE OTHER PART OF THIS
THAT IS DIFFERENT IS YOU CAN
MAKE A BROAD ARGUMENT THAT THIS
TIME AROUND THEY GOT THE ROAD
MAP, THE MUELLER REPORT IS THE
ROAD MAP.
ROAD MAP. IT’S HUNDREDS OF PAGES.
AND WHILE MUELLER SPOKE VERY
CAREFULLY AS HE WARNED HE WOULD,
HE TOLD EVERYONE HE WAS GOING TO
BE A HOSTILE WITNESS.
THAT’S WHY THERE WAS A SUBPOENA.
WE HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE THAT
HIS PROSECUTORS AND THE EXPERTS
WHO HELPED WRITE THAT REPORT,
SAW IT AS A ROAD MAP BECAUSE
SEVERAL SECTIONS MADE THE CASE
THAT THE EVIDENCE SHOWED THE
PRESIDENT COMMITTED CRIMES IN
OFFICE.
OFFICE. TO USE THE LANGUAGE OF THE
MUELLER REPORT, AS YOU KNOW,
JOYCE, SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE IN
FIVE OR MORE CASE OF
OBSTRUCTION.
OBSTRUCTION. SO IS IT BETTER TO HAVE A ROAD
MAP IF CONGRESS WANTS TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
>> YOU KNOW, IT’S BETTER TO HAVE
BOTH, AND I THINK CONGRESS IS
NOW ENTITLED TO HAVE BOTH.
WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS
THE GRAND JURY MATERIAL THAT WAS
REDACTED IN THE MUELLER REPORT.
PROSECUTORS CALL THAT SIXY FOR
SHORTHAND, THAT’S THE RULE THAT
GOVERNS DISCLOSURE OF GRAND JURY
MATERIAL, AND THAT RULE SAYS
THAT IT CAN BE RELEASED EITHER
PRELIMINARY TO OR IN CONNECTION
WITH A JUDICIAL PROCEEDING.
AN IMPEACHMENT IS A JUDICIAL
PROCEEDING, SO TODAY THE
JUDICIARY COMMITTEE HAS
CLARIFIED THAT THEY’RE INVOLVED
IN A PROCESS THAT’S PLMRELIMINAR
TO THAT JUDICIAL MATERIAL.
THEY’RE ENTITLED TO GET THAT
MATERIAL.
MATERIAL. IT’S ALSO IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO
GET IT.
GET IT. IT CAN BE DOCUMENTS AND OTHER
MATERIALS, CONNECTION PURSUANT
TO GRAND JURY SUBPOENAS, WITHOUT
HAVING SEEN THAT AND BEEN BEHIND
THE VAIL VEIL
VEIL OF ALL OF THOSE REDACTED
COMMENTS, WE DON’T KNOW HOW
VALUABLE THAT IS, BUT CONGRESS
IS ENTITLED TO FIND OUT, AND I
EXPECT THAT A COURT WILL ORDER
THIS ON AN EXPEDITED BASIS.
>> DO YOU THINK THERE’S GRAND
JURY MATERIAL THAT COULD CHANGE
ANYTHING FUNDAMENTAL?
ANYTHING FUNDAMENTAL? I MEAN, I WAS SITTING IN THE
BACK OF THAT MUELLER HEARING
ROOM ON WEDNESDAY AND ONE OF THE
REASONS THAT I THINK SO MANY
PEOPLE SAID, WELL SIS THAT IT, I
THAT ALL WAS THAT EVERYONE
BASICALLY STUCK TO THEIR POINTS.
WE SAW SOME DEMOCRATS AT THE TOP
OF THE SHOW MOVE TO IMPEACHMENT.
WE HAD A LOT OF DEMOCRATS WHO
WERE FOR IMPEACHING IN
PRESIDENT, INCLUDING MR. NADLER.
YOU HAD REPUBLICANS WHO WERE
CRITICAL.
CRITICAL. YOU HAD MUELLER HOLDING THE
LINE.
LINE. IS THERE SOMETHING IN THE GRAND
JURY MATERIAL THAT MOVES THINGS,
DO YOU THINK?
>> I SUSPECT THERE’S GOOD
INFORMATION THERE.
INFORMATION THERE. A LOT OF PEOPLE KEPT SAYING IN
ADVANCE OF THE MUELLER HEARING
THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR THE
MOVIE VERSION OF THE REPORT, AND
IT’S CLEAR MUELLER DOESN’T WIN
ANY ACADEMY AWARDS FOR BEST
DRAMATIC ACTOR, BUT WHAT HAPPENS
HERE IS THE REPORT IS MAYBE A
SLEEPER DOCUMENTARY IN THAT
ACADEMY AWARDS HUNT, AND THE
GRAND JURY MATERIAL, PROSECUTORS
DON’T GO INTO GRAND JURY WITH
THE WITNESS UNLESS THERE’S
SOMETHING IMPORTANT THAT THEY
NEED TO PIN DOWN, SOMETHING
IMPORTANT THAT THEY WANT TO
PRESERVE, SO NOT GETTING THAT
FULL FLAVOR MEANS CONGRESS MAY
BE LACKING SOME OF THE BEST
EVIDENCE, THE MOST SENSITIVE
INFORMATION.
INFORMATION. IF I WERE IN CONGRESS, I WOULD
BE DEMANDING THIS MATERIAL TOO.
I EXPECT IT WILL BE PRODUCTIVE.
>> WE’RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, BUT
BEN, TO JOYCE’S POINT, RARELY DO
YOU SEE GREAT METHOD ACTORS
APPEARING UNDER SUBPOENA.
I MEAN, THERE WERE A LOT OF
CLUES THAT MR. MUELLER WAS NOT
GOING TO GIVE MUCH OF WHAT SOME
WERE HOPING FOR.
>> THERE SURE WERE.
SO ANYBODY WHO EXPECTED BOB
MUELLER TO BE CHARISMATIC AND
NARRATIVE AND REALLY SORT OF
TELL THE STORY IN A CAPACIOUS
FASHION HAS NO EXPERIENCE WITH
BOB MUELLER.
BOB MUELLER. THAT IS NOT WHO HE IS AND TO THE
EXTENT THAT WE KIND OF
CONDITIONED OUR EXPECTATIONS OF
WHAT FBI DIRECTOR TESTIMONY
SOUNDS LIKE BASED ON THESE SORT
OF DRAMATIC TESTIMONIES BY JIM
COMEY, WE WERE, YOU KNOW, NOT
CONSIDERING WHO BOB MUELLER
REALLY IS.
REALLY IS. THAT SAID, HE, YOU KNOW, THERE’S
A LOT OF, IF YOU TAKE THE TIME
TO LISTEN TO EXTENDED PASSAGES
OF IT, HE -- THE DEMOCRATS ON
THAT COMMITTEE, BOTH OF THOSE
COMMITTEES, DID A RELATIVELY
GOOD JOB IN MY OPINION OF
DRAWING OUT IN THESE EXTENDED
SEGMENTS, YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT
FACTUAL INFORMATION IN THAT
REPORT, AND I DO THINK THAT
EXERCISE WAS VALUABLE FOR PEOPLE
WHO REALLY WANT THE FULL
EXTENDED DANCE VERSION, DRAMATIC
OF THE REPORT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE
A PODCAST CALLED THE REPORT
THAT’S BEEN TRYING TO DO EXACTLY
THAT.
THAT. >> BEN WITTIS, GOING RIGHT INTO
THE PODCAST PLUG.
YOU KNOW, RACHEL IS A BIG
PODCAST PERSON, SO I THINK YOU
DID THAT ON THE RIGHT SHOW.
>> SHE WAS VERY GOOD TO US LAST
WEEK.
WEEK. >> SO YOU’RE IN THE RIGHT SPOT
AND I KNOW AS YOU MENTIONED,
IT’S THE REPORT IF PEOPLE WANT
TO CHECK THAT OUT.
JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S.
ATTORNEY AND PROFESSOR AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA LAW
SCHOOL.
SCHOOL. APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOUR
EXPERTISE TONIGHT.
EXPERTISE TONIGHT. >> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU, GUYS.
>>> WE HAVE A LOT MORE TO GET TO