DO IT IN DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED
CITIES NATIONWIDE.
THAT’S WHY I WANTED TO TALK TO
TIM SNYDER AGAIN.
JOINING US FOR THE INTERVIEW IS
TIM SNYDER, BEST-SELLING AUTHOR
OF "ON TYRANNY."
HE IS PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT
YALE UNIVERSITY.
HE IS ABROAD AND IS UP IN THE
MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT TO BE HERE.
PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
BEING HERE.
I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.
>> OF COURSE.
>> SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT
THIS THING WE’VE BEEN WATCHING
IN PORTLAND, THE PRESIDENT’S
THREAT TO USE FORCE AND HIS
PERFORMATIVE OF FORCE AGAINST
CIVILIANS AS A MATERIAL RULE OF
LAW CRISIS, AS SOMETHING WE
OUGHT TO WORRY ABOUT IN TERMS OF
OUR DEMOCRACY?
>> OF COURSE.
IN A RULE OF LAW STATE, WHICH IS
WHAT WE SHOULD BE, YOU CAN TELL
THE POLICE FROM THE CIVILIANS.
WHEN THE POLICE DON’T IDENTIFY
THEMSELVES, WHEN THE POLICE
DON’T WEAR INSIGNIA, WHEN THE
POLICE ACT AS THOUGH THEY’RE
ABOVE THE LAW, THEN YOU HAVE
MOVED CLEARLY IN AN
AUTHORITARIAN DIRECTION.
IT IS THE DARK FANTASY BOTH IN
LIGHT AND LITERATURE OF
AUTHORITARIANISM,
TOTALITARIANISM THAT SOMEONE YOU
CAN’T IDENTIFY ARRESTS AND TAKES
YOU AWAY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
NIGHT SO, YES, THIS IS SOMETHING
WE SHOULD BE ATTENDING TO.
>> GIVEN YOUR SEMINAL WORK
LOOKING AT THE HISTORY ACROSS
EUROPE OF THE DESCENT INTO
AUTHORITARIANISM AND THE WAY
THAT DIFFERENT TYPES OF CULTURES
HAVE SLID IN THAT DIRECTION, ARE
THERE LESSONS FROM HISTORY ABOUT
THE RIGHT WAY OR THE MOST
EFFECTIVE WAY, THE MOST
MEANINGFUL WAY TO RESISTOR
OPPOSE THAT KIND OF THING WHEN
IT STARTS TO HAPPEN IN A COUNTRY
THAT YOU THINK OF AS A
REPUBLICAN, AS A DEMOCRACY?
>> WELL, ONE OF THEM WE’VE
ALREADY TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS
PROTEST ITSELF.
YOU HAVE TO START TO IDENTIFY
YOURSELF WITH THE PROTESTERS, SO
IF FIRST THEY COME FOR THE
UNDOCUMENTED AND YOU DO NOTHING
BECAUSE YOU ARE DOCUMENTED,
MAYBE YOU ARE MAKING A MISTAKE.
THEN THEY COME FROM THE BLACKS.
YOU DON’T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE
YOU’RE NOT BLACK, YOU’RE MAKING
A MISTAKE.
THEN THEY COME FOR THE
PROTESTERS AND YOU DON’T DO
ANYTHING, YOU ARE MAKING A
MISTAKE.
AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE TO TURN
IT AROUND AND SAY, LIKE THOSE
MOMS IN PORTLAND ARE DOING, IF
THEY’RE COMING FOR THE
PROTESTERS I HAVE TO STAND UP
FOR THOSE PEOPLE, I HAVE TO
STAUN FOR MY
STAND UP FOR MY FELLOW PEOPLE,
THEIR RIGHT TO THE FIRST
AMENDMENT, THE FOURTH AMENDMENT,
I’M GOING OUT FOR THAT REASON.
HISTORY SHOWS THAT MASS,
PEACEFUL PROTEST WORKS.
IF YOU ARE NOT PROTESTING NOW,
THIS WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO
START.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU
SPOKE WITH MICHELLE GOLDBERG
ABOUT AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES"
THIS WEEK IN WHAT I THOUGHT WAS
AN EXCELLENT PIECE OF ANALYSIS
WAS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE FACT
THAT IT DOES SEEM TO BE ELEMENTS
OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT,
ELEMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
HOMELAND SECURITY, SPECIFICALLY
ASSIGNED TO THE BORDER AND
ASSIGNED TO POLICING AND DEALING
WITH IMMIGRANTS, THOSE APPEAR TO
BE THE PARTS OF THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE DISPATCHED
THESE UNIDENTIFIED, UNNAMED
FEDERAL OFFICERS TO THE STREETS.
THAT TO YOU, YOU’VE SAID THAT’S
IMPORTANT, THAT WE’RE SEEING
THAT PART OF THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT BROUGHT OFF THE
BORDER AND INTO THE INTERIOR TO
START POLICING CIVILIANS.
WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?
>> YES, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
ANY HISTORIAN OF EMPIRE WOULD
SAY OR THE POLITICAL THEORISTS
WOULD SAY.
VIOLENCE STARTS AT THE
BORDERLAND.
PEOPLE CAN BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO
VIOLENCE AT THE BORDER, AND WHAT
AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME DOES IS
IT BRINGS THOSE PEOPLE BACK INTO
THE CITIES AND USES THEMSELVES
AGAINST PROTESTERS IN THE
CITIES.
PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAINED TO THINK
OF OTHERS AS NOT LIKE US, AS
ALIENS, AS FOREIGNERS ARE THEN
TOLD, WELL, THERE HAPPEN TO BE
PEOPLE INLAND WHO ARE ALSO NOT
LIKE US.
A SIMILAR ASPECT HERE IS
DETENTION CENTERS.
WE HAVE A HUGE NETWORK OF
DETENTION CENTERS WHICH ARE
BASICALLY LAWLESS ZONES.
ANOTHER HISTORICAL PATTERN IS
PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAINED IN
LAWLESS ZONES SUCH AS DETENTION
CENTERS OR CONCENTRATION CAMPS
ARE RELEASED INTO CITIES LATER
ON AND THEY BEHAVE THE SAME WAY,
THE WAY THEY’VE BEEN TRAINED.
THIS IS THE REASON WHY WE CARE
ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, WHY WE DON’T
HAVE LAWLESS ZONES, WHY WE DON’T
TREAT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT