Maggie Haberman, welcome to The Daily Show.
Thanks for having me.
You have written a book that many have called
the ultimate guide to Donald J. Trump
because it feels like you have an understanding of him
that few--
never mind journalists-- few human beings do.
And what's interesting is every time I've seen your reporting
on him, every time I've seen him comment on you
and the conversations you have with each other
and the interviews that he grants you,
even though he seems to hate you, but then he likes you,
it seems a little bit like the relationship Hannibal
had with Clarice.
[laughter]
I can't tell if you have a mutual admiration
for each other, fascination as a journalist.
Explain to me why he keeps speaking to you,
and then afterwards says to you,
why would you write the things that he said to you?
[laughter]
First of all, thank you, and thank you for having me.
A couple of things-- look, he's a subject who I cover.
And I have covered a number of politicians
over the last 26 years.
I covered Hillary Clinton.
I covered Mike Bloomberg.
I covered Rudy Giuliani, who, in many ways,
was a proto Trump, at least in certain aspects
of his behavior, and now is very much like Trump
and is more similar to him over time.
Trump needs the media in a way that's
unlike any other politician I've ever seen.
He craves attention, and I explore this in the book.
He just constantly wants to hold the media's gaze.
And he wants to see if he can sell
you on a version of himself.
And he wants to get what he would call
a good story-- literally, those would
be the words-- a good story.
And then you write about him accurately,
and he says that it's unfair.
You know, so that's the dynamic you're talking about.
But he basically-- he's obsessed
with The New York Times.
That is a lot of what this is about.
He is uniquely focused on the paper.
And I'm just the person who has covered
him more often than not.
It really feels like he is somebody who is frozen in time
because everything he's obsessed with
seems to be something that was popular when
he reached some sort of zeitgeist himself, you know?
So it'll be The New York Times, and then
he'll complain about certain magazines but not others.
And then SNL he has a certain penchant
for, but then not other shows.
It's an interesting world that he
exists in that isn't current but seems current to him.
And in the book, you talk about how he lives minute to minute
when the rest of us move almost from 24 hours to 24 hours.
But it doesn't seem like he's plagued
as much by the things we think he is as he actually is.
Like, what do we misunderstand about Trump?
I actually think you understand really well based
on everything you just said.
I think there is a preserved in amber quality to him.
Yes.
You just described that about how
all of his cultural touchstones are
in the 1980s, which is when he was reaching his height.
He loves to talk about how many times he's
on the cover of Time magazine.
National news magazines, weeklies are
not in their heyday right now.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
And yet he talks about it all the time.
The celebrities he talks about are from the 1980s.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
The sports figures generally are from the 1980s.
It's when he was rising to prominence.
And I agree with you that I think
there is a degree to which he has just stuck there.
And he's also stuck there culturally.
He's stuck there in terms of racial politics.
He is stuck there in terms of New York City's machine
boss politics from that era.
And he exported so much of that onto Washington
and onto the Republican Party.
The other thing that I think that people don't understand--
and I try to show this and explore this--
is his fascination with violence
and how much violence informs what he thinks of strength.
And then strength informs what he thinks is a strong boss
or a strong leader.
So you will hear him praise a local machine party
boss like the former Brooklyn Democratic Party head
as ruling with an iron fist.
He'll use the same words about Xi
Jinping, the president of China, who's an authoritarian.
It's all contextless and kind of flat and the same.
And I think people miss that, yes, he's playing to crowds.
Yes, he will say whatever he has to say to survive
small increments of time.
But, ultimately, the scenarios that exist for him
kind of stay the same.
TREVOR NOAH: But what makes him scarier
in my reading of this book is people
often see Donald Trump as somebody
who is setting the trends.
But, as you read through this book,
and as you understand the man, you
come to realize that he is oftentimes
a victim of the trends, and then he plays to them.
So he'll say something to his crowd that he believes.
The crowd won't vibe with it, and so then he'll
change what he believes in to keep going with the crowd,
which makes him even scarier.
Because if you think about authoritarian leaders
or any others out there who go, I rule with an iron fist,
their fist is their fist, but Donald Trump says,
how would you like my fist to be?
And then he keeps it in that direction.
Like, so when you look at that and when you see that man,
isn't that a scarier place to be?
And the people around him-- do they do they notice that?
Or do they think that he's controlling his own narrative?
It depends on how close they get to him.
And it depends, frankly, on how willing
they are to parrot the preferred version of himself
that he presents.
So there's two versions of himself that he can tolerate,
one that he really wants, which is adulation and hero worship.
And he gets that in certain quarters
of the conservative media and from some of his aides.
And then there's the portrait of him as competent strongman.
This book is neither one of those,
and, I think, explains exactly who he is.
There are people around him who recognize
that he is often playing to the room, the crowd.
He is taking his cues from Fox News,
and then it became this kind of circular feeding cycle
with Fox News, where they would say something.
And he would pick it up and amplify it,
and then they would cover it more.
And that is often how he makes decisions.
And I explore how whether that was about not wanting a mask
mandate during COVID, or whether he was attacking
football players who were taking a knee in protest
of police brutality, or when he was at CPAC in 2011
and he saw that attacking Ron Paul
was playing well to the crowd.
It's always in response to, how's it playing?
He exists in an interesting space in the world
because Donald Trump is the man,
but then you talk about in the book,
there's also Donald Trump the idea.
And you give us truly one of the most
comprehensive insights into how the man was forged.
Many people around the world don't
know that he was considered a joke
in many New York circles--
in business, in entertainment, whatever field it was.
Many people don't realize--
and you talk about this in the book--
how The Apprentice was in some ways
a sort of joke idea of like, oh, this guy
will tell you how to run your business
because he was so terrible.
But he was so captivating on screen.
He was so magnetic.
He knew how to create entertainment.
And then it became the tail wagging the dog.
Correct.
People saw the show.
They went, he must be successful,
and then because of that, his success started rising.
And he went from the doldrums of nothingness
back to being a semi-successful person.
So then I wonder-- when you look at Donald Trump,
and you think of him through the lens of entertainment
and politics, do you think Donald
Trump has broken America?
Because you say that the making of Donald Trump
and the breaking of America.
Do you think he's broken America,
or do you think he's exposed how America is broken?
I think he has exposed aspects
of how America has broken and fueled and exploited
that for his own gain.
I think that the partisan divide that
exists in this country started in the 1990--
it started before that, but it really,
really accelerated in the 1990s.
And then there were a series of national traumas
that voters reacted to.
There was an impeachment of Bill Clinton.
There were terrorist attacks in the US.
There were wars that followed.
There was an election in 2000 settled by the Supreme Court.
There was the fiscal crisis, where
most people who were seen responsible were not punished.
All of that left an impact on voters,
looking for something that they thought
they were finding in him.
But his ethos that he came to define in New York in that
period you're talking about, in the 1980s, really
was hate as a civic good.
Hate should be a civic good.
He would talk about that.
He would talk about in the context
of racial violence in New York that he
would want to hate people.
And that is what he exported.
So he didn't create it, but he fueled it.
And he has benefited from it, and there
is a tremendous trickle-down effect.
He has an interesting, paradoxical vibe to him
at times.
Because, on the one hand-- and maybe
this plays to what you're saying,
or it's an example of it-- he plays to the room.
You know, I've interviewed Republicans,
who at the very beginning would say,
like, no, I've spoken to him.
He's fine.
He just says that to the crowd.
And then they themselves months later will be like,
I'm shocked.
I didn't think he would do this.
I didn't think he would go this way.
You have said in the book-- and you
say from the beginning-- this man is the most
consistent person, ironically.
He is going to be who he is, and he
always has been in many ways.
And you even break down his techniques in an interview
or when he's dealing with press.
You almost break them down like video game character moves
where you go, he's going to defend.
He's going to deny.
He's going to shift the blame.
He's going to get angry.
He'll perform the anger.
You talk about all these things.
Why do journalists now not understand this?
Why do journalists still get tricked or trapped
into a place where they go, Trump, what is this?
And then he spins them, and then they're like,
oh, you did it again to me?
Why does that still happen?
I think, in fairness to my colleagues, I think,
for the most part, people realize who
Donald Trump is at this point.
I think that when he became president, people,
particularly in the Washington press corps, many of whom
did not follow the campaign in 2016--
TREVOR NOAH: Ah, OK.
--did not know who he was, the person that they were
dealing with, how effective he is at getting media around his
finger to do what he wanted.
I think people generally do understand that now.
I think you have seen far fewer interviews from Mar-a-Lago
over the course of the last 18 months
despite his desire to hold the media's gaze.
Now, whether that changes when he's a nominee, potentially,
or a candidate, almost certainly,
I think that's an open question.
And we're going to see how that goes.
One of the more fascinating parts of the book that I truly
enjoyed as somebody who's been immersed
in this world for a long time is
the brewing clash between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.
Ron DeSantis is somebody who, in my opinion,
has slowly started adopting elements of Trump
in order to win over Trumpers, but then
doesn't transform himself into Trump so that he seems
like a reasonable choice.
I mean, like, I watch him even talking in, like, a briefing,
and he started using hands like Trump.
He starts doing little moves like Trump.
He starts speaking in curt sentences like Trump--
very good, very good.
Doesn't change his voice, but he dresses in the frumpy suits
like Trump.
He has, like, a-- no, really, I think
he's emulated enough of Trump to take Trump's people,
but then not so much of Trump to dissuade
the middle voters who want somebody who's reasonable.
And it seems like Donald Trump is starting to realize
that Ron DeSantis is stealing his vibe,
and he doesn't like it.
No, he's not happy about it.
And he thinks that he made Ron DeSantis.
And he talked about this with me in interviews last year--
Yeah.
--that he was responsible for DeSantis.
You know, I said, Ron, you're at 3%.
And when Ron asked for my endorsement,
he told me that he thought he would
beat anybody very easily.
I asked if he had talked to DeSantis
about running against him or DeSantis running against him.
He said that hadn't come up.
But it's clearly on his mind, and he's been
privately trashing him to--
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
--and number of people, which is often what
he does when he's practicing.
TREVOR NOAH: Yeah, but he trashes him about his weight.
Well, he's been trashing him privately to people--
fat, phony, whiny.
So Trump has been saying that Ron DeSantis is fat.
[laughter]
Right.
OK.
[laughter]
It's interesting because you also talk about in the book
why you think and how you think Trump sees the presidency
and what it brings him.
He's in a different position to what he was in before.
Before, it seemed like it was a joy ride.
It seemed like another push for publicity,
maybe to get more money for The Apprentice or whatever.
But now it seems like there are more stakes.
You know, he may want the politics,
but he's also worried about the investigations.
He's also worried-- do you then think-- knowing him
the way you do and having the interviews that you've had
with him and the people around him,
do you think that then, in a weird way,
Ron DeSantis is now the biggest threat to Trump?
Because if Ron DeSantis manages to take the Republican Party
away from Trump, Trump loses his best opportunity
to escape all of the cases that are coming
and all the people that are coming for him.
Whether it's Ron DeSantis or someone else,
the biggest threat to Donald Trump
is that someone will stop him in the Republican Party.
Now a number of donors and a number of conservatives
are hopeful DeSantis is it.
We are just seeing DeSantis on a national stage
in a way we haven't before with the hurricane response.
And so we'll see how that goes.
He has had a couple of off moments-- not in the last day,
but he has had a couple of off moments in handling it.
Everyone looks very good until they're on the bigger stage.
And that is one thing Trump is aware of is
that the difference that he brought to running
for president over other candidates was he
had been in the media spotlight for decades.
TREVOR NOAH: Right.
And it is just something that is completely different.
Now the party is different in overall
how it deals with the national media.
Republicans are very aggressive against national reporters
at this point.
DeSantis has, obviously, co-opted that from Trump too.
DeSantis does not need or crave national attention in
the media the way Trump does.
Trump is definitely aware DeSantis is a threat.
I think it is too soon to say what that looks like.
TREVOR NOAH: Before I let you go-- because, I mean,
it's an amazing book.
We could talk for hours about it.
Thank you.
Trump is a force unlike any other in American
and maybe even world politics.
He's inspired so many other countries.
When I travel, people will have these strange opinions
about him.
I've never seen anything like it,
where other countries have opinions about Trump
as if they vote for him as well, people on the ground.
Yes.
Genuinely, you don't really see that.
And it feels like he has turned American politics forever.
When you speak to him, does he have
an acknowledgment of the volatility
that he's dealing with?
Or does he only think of it through the lens of Trump
and entertainment and getting to the end goal?
Or is there even a part of him that goes, ooh,
if I do this incorrectly, I could blow
up the country as a whole?
I don't think there's a ton of the introspection
that you just described.
I think there's--
I think, in general, he looks at everything in terms
of how it impacts him.
And even when he is told that something is going bad,
even if he's conscious of it, he
will be aware that something is problematic for others.
But for whatever 3D chess in his head-- and it
isn't literally 3D chess, but how he's gaming this out--
he won't allow himself to acknowledge that because that
would be a sign of weakness.
Or that would be giving somebody else a chit.
And so even if that's a consideration,
you're never going to hear him say that.
You will hear him say--
he threw himself the other day--
I'll just give you an example.
He volunteered himself to try to solve
the war between Russia and Ukraine, to be a peacemaker.
This is a classic Donald Trump move,
which is I'm going to throw myself
into this national situation that
doesn't involve me at all.
He was offering himself up as Reagan's arms negotiator
with the Soviet Union in the early 1980s.
TREVOR NOAH: Well, he actually did that?
He literally was offering himself up this way.
TREVOR NOAH: Wow.
And so now, obviously, he was not taken up on it.
But it's a little different when it's
a former president doing this.
And it's just, in his head, the context just doesn't change.
The moves are all the same.
TREVOR NOAH: Every part of the book is interesting.
You have notes from Donald Trump,
for instance, because you, obviously, send them to him.
You know, say, this is what I'm writing.
Do you have any comment or anything?
Some of them are, like, him just going, like,
fake news, he scribbled and he sent to you.
Others are him--
There were several that said fake news.
There are several that said fake news.
Some of my favorites were the ones where he's like, oh,
this is great.
I never thought of it like this.
It's like this, like, weird--
there's weird, interesting parts in how he sees you
and what you're doing.
I mean, there's a fascinating story about Rudy Giuliani
taking the biggest dump in a private plane
I've ever heard from Trump.
It's a book that covers everything,
and, honestly, I hope a lot of people
read it before the next election comes.
Because I think it gives a lot of much needed insight.
Thank you.
Maggie, thank you so much for joining on the show.
- Thank you so much. - Appreciate you.
[cheering]
Confidence Man is out now wherever
you get your books, people. Maggie Haberman.