WHY DID YOU LEAVE THE PARTY
WHERE YOU’VE SERVED FOR A COUPLE
OF GENERATIONS?
>> LOOK, IT WASN’T EASY.
I BECAME A REPUBLICAN IN 1980.
WORKED FOR RONALD REAGAN, BOTH
PRESIDENTS BUSH, AND I DID IT
FOR REASONS -- THEY SUPPORTED A
STRONG, SENSIBLE, I THOUGHT,
AMERICAN ROLE IN THE WORLD FOR
THE MOST PART, MODEST GOVERNMENT
ROLE IN THE ECONOMY.
THEY BELIEVED IN THE RULE OF
LAW, AND PRINCIPLE.
BELIEVED IN AN IMMIGRATION
POLICY THAT ATTRACTED AND
RETAINED THE MOST TALENTED
PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
THAT’S NOT THIS REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
AND OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO I
CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I
DIDN’T SEE A WAY BACK, WILLIE.
IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO COME
TO THAT POINT, I HAVE HAD SAD TO
COME TO THE POINT BUT I JUST
DIDN’T THINK THE PARTY COULD
REDISCOVER THOSE ROOTS AND I
DECIDED TO GO PUBLIC WITH IT NOW
JUST GIVEN RECENT EVENTS,
JANUARY 6th.
IT WAS A PRIVATE DECISION BUT I
THOUGHT THE TIME HAD COME TO BE
PUBLIC BECAUSE I WAS HOPING
OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT FOLLOW SUIT
AND JUST MAYBE, MAYBE SOME
PEOPLE ON THE HOLE -- ON THE
HILL CASTING THIS HISTORIC VOTE
MIGHT REALIZE THERE’S
SELF-INTEREST.
PRINCIPLE AND THE REST IS
OBVIOUS HERE.
DONALD TRUMP OUGHT TO BE
FOUND -- OUGHT TO BE CONVICTED.
BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THE
REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE ARE
BEING MOTIVATED BY CALCULATION,
I WAS THINKING MAYBE JUST MAYBE
IF ENOUGH REPUBLICANS MADE IT
CLEAR, THIS IS NOT THE PARTY WE
CAN SUPPORT, WE CAN’T SUPPORT
PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING TO ACQUIT,
THEN MAYBE IT WOULD MAKE A
DIFFERENCE.
>> YOU KNOW, LONNIE, THERE ARE A
LOT OF PEOPLE, WE TALKED TO ANN
APPLEBAUM EARLIER THIS MORNING
WHO DESCRIBED HERSELF IN THE
BOOK AS A THATCHERITE, FOLLOWING
RONALD REAGAN, THERE ARE PEOPLE
LIKE MYSELF AND RICHARD HAAS WHO
DON’T HAVE A PARTY WHO AT THIS
TIME OBVIOUSLY ARE AGAINST WHAT
DONALD TRUMP DID OVER THE PAST
FOUR YEARS.
BUT WE ALSO LOOK AT A $2
TRILLION COVID RELIEF BILL THAT
WE -- THAT RICHARD AND I BOTH
THINK IS BLOATED, AND IS NOT
TARGETED ENOUGH AT A TIME WHEN
THE CEO IS SUGGESTING THAT OUR
ANNUAL -- THAT OUR NATIONAL DEBT
IS GOING TO BE BIGGER THAN OUR
ECONOMY.
AND ALSO THAT WE’RE GOING TO
GROW AT 3.75%.
I BRING THOSE ISSUES UP ONLY TO
SAY, WHERE DO PEOPLE LIKE
RICHARD AND MYSELF AND MILLIONS
OF OTHER FORMER REPUBLICANS GO?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO
BE A PLACE FOR A VIBRANT CENTER
RIGHT CONVERSATION IN THIS
COUNTRY.
POLICY ALTERNATIVES.
JOE, YOU’VE IDENTIFIED ONE AREA
WHERE I THINK THERE IS A
YEARNING AMONGST MANY AMERICANS
TO HAVE A SERIOUS CONVERSATION,
DEBT AND DEFICIT.
WHAT DO WE NEED TO GET THIS
ECONOMY GOING, DO WE NEED TO
SPEND $2 TRILLION.
THAT’S A VERY REAL QUESTION,
THERE ARE A HOST OF OTHER
QUESTIONS AS WELL, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHAT IS A CLEAR EYED VIEW, BUT A
CONSTRUCTIVE ONE TOWARD CHINA
LOOK LIKE, THERE’S ANOTHER AREA
WHERE I THINK YOU COULD FIND A
CENTER RIGHT AND PROBABLY CENTER
LEFT CONSENSUS, THERE ARE A
WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES ON WHICH I
THINK IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT
FOR US TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A
VIBRANT CENTER RIGHT
CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT THAT
STANDS FOR MATTERS OF PRINCIPLE.
I THINK THAT IS HUGELY
IMPORTANT.
I THINK THE QUESTION IS, CAN
THAT HAPPEN WITHIN THE CONTEXT
OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?
OR DOES IT HAVE TO BE SOME KIND
OF NEW CONVERSATION?
BUT I DO THINK THAT OUR POLITICS
JUST WON’T WORK, JOE, UNLESS
THERE IS A VERY REAL
CONVERSATION AND PEOPLE WHO ARE
WILLING TO STAND UP ON PRINCIPLE
AND WILLING TO SAY, ALONG, THERE
ARE POLICY ALTERNATIVES HERE.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST HALF
OF AMERICANS FEEL THAT THERE HAS
TO BE THAT ROBUST DISCUSSION.
>> LONNIE, AS YOU KNOW, PEOPLE
WHO WANT TO BE PRESIDENT, AT
LEAST WANT TO BE THE NOMINEE IN
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FIRST ARE
GOING TO HAVE TO START TWISTING
THEMSELVES IN KNOTS IN THE WAY
THEY TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.
JUST THIS MORNING FORMER U.N.
AMBASSADOR NIKKI HALEY, WHO
SERVED, OF COURSE, ALONGSIDE
PRESIDENT TRUMP, OFTEN PRAISED
PRESIDENT TRUMP, TOLD POLITICO’S
CHIEF CORRESPONDENT TIM ALBERTA
THIS.
"I DON’T THINK HE’S GOING TO BE
IN THE PICTURE, SPEAKING OF
TRUMP, SHE SAID MATTER OF
FACTUALLY, I DON’T THINK HE CAN,
HE’S FALLEN SO FAR, WE NEED TO
ACKNOWLEDGE HE LET US DOWN.
SHE CONTINUED.
HE WENT DOWN A PATH HE SHOULDN’T
HAVE, AND WE SHOULDN’T HAVE
FOLLOWED HIM AND WE SHOULDN’T
HAVE LISTENED TO HIM AND WE
CAN’T LET THAT EVER HAPPEN
AGAIN."
AS WE POINTED OUT EARLIER,
LONNIE, IT WAS THREE WEEKS AGO
SHE WAS ON FOX NEWS, AMBASSADOR
HALEY, AND SAYING WE HAVE TO
MOVE ON, GIVE THIS GUY A BREAK,
TALKING ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND
IMPEACHMENT.
HOW DO REPUBLICANS POSITION
THEMSELVES WITH TRUMP STILL ON
THE STAGE, OR AT LEAST LURKING
SOMEWHERE AROUND THE CORNER?
>> WELL, I THINK YOU’RE GOING TO
SEE, WILLIE, A LOT OF DIFFERENT
REPUBLICANS TRY TO DO THIS IN
THEIR OWN WAY.
SOME WILL TAKE THE APPROACH THAT
AMBASSADOR HALEY HAS TAKEN,
WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS TO BEGIN TO
DRAW THAT DISTANCE, BEGIN TO SAY
THAT THERE ISN’T A FUTURE FOR
DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, REALLY
TAKE IT DIRECTLY AT REPUBLICAN
VOTERS AND SAY HERE ARE THE WAYS
IN WHICH, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE
MISLED.
WAYS IN WHICH YOU WEREN’T TOLD
THE TRUTH.
THAT’S ONE APPROACH.
YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE OTHERS IN
THE SENATE NOW WHO HAVE A MUCH
MORE DIFFICULT BALANCING ACT.
SOME CERTAINLY ARE GOING TO GO
THE WAY OF BEING FULLY
SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP, EMBRACING
HIM, BELIEVING HE WILL CONTINUE
TO HAVE A FUTURE IN THE
CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, PEOPLE
LIKE TED CRUZ, YOU’RE GOING TO
HAVE OTHERS THAT WILL DRAW A
FINER LINE, MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE
SENATOR COTTON WHO ARE GOING TO
TRY AND SAY, LOOK, YOU’VE GOT
TRUMP AND THAT PART OF THE
MOVEMENT, BUT THERE’S ALSO AN
EFFORT TO REINVIGORATE THIS
CONSERVATISM I TALK ABOUT AND
THEN THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE
GOING TO HAVE TO DRAW A STRICT
LINE AGAINST IT.
PEOPLE LIKE BEN SASSE.
IT WILL BE INTERESTING, THE