- Hi guys, welcome back to the Parenting Junkie.
I'm so thrilled to be here again with Dr. Laura Markham
and her lovely daughter Alice.
And we're going to talk about sibling dynamics,
especially around fairness.
Have your kids ever asked you and said, "It's not fair!"?
If so, you're gonna want to watch this video until the end.
Now, if this series is helpful for you
and you think it could be helpful
for any other parents you know, please share it with them.
You can tag us on Instagram at ahaparenting,
@parentingjunkie, share it out on Facebook, email, SMS,
all the regular routes.
So just tell someone, tell someone about it.
We would love to spread the word of peaceful parenting
and Dr. Laura Markham's work further afoot.
Yeah, so without further ado,
we're gonna talk about fairness.
Let's get into it.
- You're gonna go on a sleepover.
- Yes.
I'm gonna go on a sleepover. - So exciting.
It's your first sleepover.
And I know you're super-excited
and I just saw that little look you gave
to your little sister. - It's not fair.
- Yeah, and-
- Why does she get to go to a sleepover,
and I don't get to go to a sleepover?
- 'Cause you're littler than me.
- So, you know what?
I'm gonna talk with your sister about it, okay?
And we know that in our house,
what's our most important family rule?
Be kind.
So, when you get to have something
that someone else doesn't- - I am kind.
- You know what?
I loved that about you. - I didn't say that-
- I know you didn't say anything mean at all.
- She can do her own sleepover.
- I can't do it.
- She's a little little to do a sleepover yet.
Yet, she's gonna sleepover soon, but not yet,
'cause she's not quite old enough,
but I just noticed that look you gave her
was that you get to have one and she doesn't, right?
So, I just wanted to say,
I know that you usually are able to choose kindness.
And in that moment just now,
you were so excited about the sleepover
and how you got to do it,
that you chose something a little kind with your look.
That's all.
But you get to have a sleepover.
- Yeah! - We'll talk about it soon.
Okay? - Okay.
- You go ahead sweetie. - Okay.
- I'm gonna talk with your sister about this.
Your sister's doing a sleepover,
and you're not, are you?
- No.
- No, not yet.
Not yet.
- I don't get to do one, it's not fair.
Why can't I?
- Well, you're not quite old enough.
- Why not?
- What do you think it'd be like to have a sleepover?
- I would go to Hannah's house
- To Hannah's house.
- And then I would sleep there.
- You would fall asleep there. - Yeah.
- And when you fall asleep at home-
- And we will have breakfast.
- You get to have breakfast.
- Before that we would play.
- Aha, that sounds like really fun,
'cause you love playing with Hannah.
And then in the middle of the night,
when you were at our house in the middle of the night,
sometimes you wake up, right?
And what you do in the middle of the night
when you wake up?
- I go to your room.
- And then what?
- And then I wake you up.
- Yeah, and then what?
- And then, you hold me.
- Yeah, yeah.
And eventually, you go back to sleep either in my bed
or back in your own bed, right?
- Yeah. - Okay.
So, if you go to Hannah's house and have a sleepover
and you wake up in the middle of the night,
what happens then?
'Cause I won't be there.
- No. - No.
- You could come.
(Dr. Markham laughs)
- We could do a sleepover,
you and me and Hannah!
Oh my gosh, I never thought of that!
I don't know why I didn't think of that!
What a great idea!
You know what? - Don't be silly mom.
- It's so silly, right?
Someday, you're gonna have a sleepover, someday,
and you're gonna get to have breakfast with Hannah.
- I'll sleep through the night.
- And you know what?
You could work on sleeping through the night
and not coming to wake me up.
That would be hard, I know.
But I wonder if you would be able to put yourself
back to sleep at night when you woke up.
- Yeah. - Without coming to
wake me up. - I can do it.
- You think you could do that?
- Yeah.
- I think- - She can do it.
- My sister can do do it.
- Your sister can do it.
And she's been working on it and she now does it.
Every night she sleeps,
and if she wakes up, she puts herself back to sleep.
She even gets up to pee
and then goes back to bed or something,
doesn't wake me up.
Yeah, you could work on that too
if you wanted, couldn't you?
- Hm-hmm (affirmative).
- And I think you would be ready for a sleepover
and not too long- - When?
- And not too long once you master that.
- Okay. - Right?
and then you would feel comfortable
going to Hannah's without me.
- Can Hannah sleepover here?
- When Hannah's mother says that Hannah's ready,
and when Hannah feels ready, right,
then it would be fine with me, if Hannah sleeps over,
'cause you guys really wanna have breakfast.
And you know, some morning-
- We're going to play all night long.
- Oh, and then you would,
you wouldn't even go to sleep probably.
- No. - I bet you someday-
- I'm never gonna go to sleep.
- You will never go to sleep.
You and Hannah will play all night long.
- Stay up all night long and we're gonna play.
- What a great idea.
- Hm-hmm (affirmative).
- Do you think, how old would you be when you did that?
Like 16, 17?
- No, like nine.
- Oh, maybe when you're nine,
that's only five years away.
You might be ready when you're nine.
You'll have to see.
We'll have to talk about it again when you're nine.
So, I know it doesn't seem fair,
your sister gets to do this.
Your sister is ready.
Your sister's ready and you're not quite ready,
but you'll be ready someday.
You're just not ready yet, right?
- Okay. - Okay.
- Okay, awesome.
So, let's unpack fairness, okay?
Are things fair?
Do things need to be fair?
What does it mean when a kid says it's not fair?
And how are you responding in that situation?
- You notice that what I actually did
was I sidestepped the fairness issue.
- Yeah, I totally forgot that it wasn't fair.
- Well, what we looked at was what the actual reason was.
It wasn't about the fairness.
And we also empowered the child to earn,
what's keeping this child actually from the sleepover?
Could you work on that? Could you earn that, right?
So, I think there are times when you might have to
sweeten the pot somewhat and say, "I know it's hard
your sister is going tonight on a sleepover.
Why don't you and I have a special night tonight
since it's just the two of us?"
- It's totally inconsolable. - Yes.
- I get to choose the movie.
- You're gonna miss your sister,
but maybe you and I could have a movie night tonight
and we could watch whatever movie you want,
'cause sometimes your sister wants to watch movies
that you're not so crazy about,
but maybe you could watch your favorite movie
for the 25th time which your sister would miss.
- Right. - Right.
- So there would be times
when I would try to help her feel better that way.
And there'd be other times I would empower her.
Both things might be the case.
The it's not fair thing, as we know,
children have an innate sense of fairness, humans do.
And we know that babies before they're verbal
notice whether something's fair or not,
and we have ways to test that.
So, when a child says, "It's not fair,"
we didn't even do that here,
but we could say, "That really doesn't feel fair to you."
You think if she has it, you should have it.
And maybe we need a better example than the sleepover,
because that's so easy to talk about, skill-building.
Maybe we need to do, you just got a new pair of shoes.
New shoes. - Shoes, yeah.
I want those shoes. - Those sparkling,
beautiful shoes that you got.
- I want sparkly shoes.
- You need new shoes now.
- It's not fair that she has sparkly shoes
and I don't have sparkly shoes.
- It doesn't seem fair that your sister got new shoes
and you didn't have them.
And let me see, let me see here your shoes.
So, your feet are growing all the time,
but they still fit in these shoes just fine.
You're not quite ready for new shoes yet.
Not quite ready yet.
You will be ready for new shoes soon.
You might still feel inconsolable.
She's got the most sparkly shoes.
Do you love her sparkly shoes?
- Yes.
- They're really beautiful shoes.
- My shoes aren't sparkly.
- They're beautiful shoes.
When you're ready for your new shoes,
do you think you might wanna pair like that?
- Yeah.
- Should we write that down so we remember
when it's time for you to have shoes
that you want the sparkly shoes?
What shop were they at?
Do we remember the shop?
Write it down.
And children think that writing is magical, right?
And it is! - Yeah, it is.
It's remembered, it's documented.
- Exactly, it's something, there's documentation, exactly.
- Proof. - And so,
that way you feel like, okay,
there's a possibility of justice in the future,
even though there's not justice now.
And to you, it doesn't seem like justice
that she gets shoes and you don't
because your feet haven't yet outgrown your shoes.
That doesn't make sense to you.
So, you're gonna have to take my word for it.
And once again, we're back to the lens of connection.
That if she trusts me and trusts me to meet her needs,
even though it doesn't seem fair, I have basically said,
when you're ready for shoes, which will happen,
you're gonna be able to get these, if you choose to,
she's gonna accept it,
because we're not in power struggles
all the time, (Alice coughs)
because we do have a relationship
where she trusts me, right?
And I think that's why preventative maintenance
is the bottom line for children
to accept the inherent injustice of life,
because it is...
I mean, here's another thing.
I know it doesn't seem fair that your big sister
always wins your races.
It's not, it doesn't seem fair.
You're right, she is a faster runner than you.
- It's not fair. - You aren't as fast
as her yet, right?
And if you work on your running
and you practice, practice, practice, you will get faster.
And you're not as fast as she is yet.
And I know it doesn't seem fair that she's so fast.
And now I have to say that when Alice was young,
do you remember saying to Eli-
- "When I'm older than you..."
- Because you were four and he was eight and you said,
"When I'm eight, I'll be as old as you.
And you'll see then!"
It hadn't occurred to her yet that eventually
he would be 12 and there was no way to catch up.
- Not got a chance.
- I think it sunk in shortly after that,
he explained it to her in a kind way.
In a kind way.
- I think he was like, "Yeah, when that happens..."
- He was nice about it, but she's, it slowly dawned on her.
And I think her grief was very real.
You just cried and (Alice coughs) like,
"I'll never be as old as him!
He'll always be bigger and faster!
He'll always be able to win at the games!"
And I think there is for the younger child,
this sense of injustice, just because you're younger
and it's not fair.
"How come he got to be born first?"
And I think the only thing to do with that unfairness,
that grief, is to honor it.
It's like, "I know you wish you were the oldest."
Now, sometime not at that moment,
sometime later, it might be that you would point out that,
"As the younger child,
you get a longer story time with mommy at night,"
or whatever else...
I mean, and he would be the first to tell you
all the litany of things she got, that he didn't get, right?
And so, I think that's useful too,
'cause I'm sure the older child feels
that something's not fair,
that the baby always said, "Oh, you think,"
as Eli said to me once.
"You think that she can do wrong.
She's so angelic looking."
(women laugh)
But of course, that wasn't true.
So both children think it's not fair.
And there's a way in which you cannot possibly undo that.
All you can do is honor their grief about the unfairness
and try to make sure that you're always able to.
I mean, that you hear them.
- Yeah, one of the things that I like to tell my kids
is that that life isn't fair.
And I don't think that that's a problem.
You know what I mean?
I think it's not about fairness.
I realize that we're all looking for equality,
in division from babyhood, et cetera.
But just exactly what you're saying is
that each situation has pros and cons, right?
Being the youngest has its pros and cons,
being the oldest has pros and cons.
Whatever you are?
Being a boy, being a girl, it doesn't matter.
All of these different things.
and I think it's helpful to learn,
to look at your blessings, to count your blessings, right?
And to be appreciative of what you got.
So right, in that moment where you're feeling it's not fair,
that's gonna be a hard time to bring that up.
But just the idea that
what I try to impart to them, however clumsily,
is that I'm interested in everyone's needs being met.
More than everyone getting the exact same thing.
So I'll say things like, "You don't even like banana.
So, if I give three bananas to Liam, is that unfair to you?
He got three more than you.
But that's still fair, 'cause you don't want that, right?
But you want something completely different, right?"
And just this idea that everybody has different needs
and different abilities and different skills
and that that's okay.
That's a beautiful thing, right?
It's beautiful 'cause we're different and being different
and diverse is something to celebrate.
So, just trying to bring it round to yeah, it isn't fair,
but that's also okay and that's just a fact of life, right?
- Well, that the more important question is,
are your needs being met?
- Exactly, yeah.
It's not about, yeah.
And that's also something that I actually say to them,
I say, rather than saying what he got
or rather than saying what he didn't get,
"Why don't you ask me for what you want, right?
Just say what you want?"
- He got a bigger piece.
- Exactly, would you like more?
- Exactly. - It's not about
he got a bigger piece of, do you want more?
It doesn't matter what he got.
- There's plenty for everyone. - Yeah.
It just doesn't matter. - It's not a scarcity model.
- Right, exactly, exactly.
I think that's really the-
- Key. - The core is learning to ask
for what you want.
And in this case, she wanted a sleepover,
and she couldn't have it.
- Right, right.
And I do think that empowerment
is always our goal with children.
That we don't wanna say that.
I mean, that in the old generation when parents would say,
"Life, isn't fair," it dis-empowers you.
I think you're simply saying, "It isn't fair.
You're right, I'm sorry, that is the way life is.
But your needs will be met, there's plenty to go around."
That's what you're saying, which is an empowering message.
And you can even be more explicit
about the empowering message.
You can say, "Instead of life isn't fair,"
you can just say, "I wonder what part of this
you could change if you chose to?"
- Yeah, and that's a huge part too.
- And that was the message
I was giving you initially, right?
And it was the message I gave you about the running,
her running faster than you.
And no, you'll never catch up with her in your age,
that is true.
But there are things you can do to have more
of what it is you're wanting, yeah,
that you can create for yourself.
No one ever has to be a victim.
We can always say, "Okay, what part of this can I change?
And all right, I had a setback,
but it's not a permanent setback.
It's not because I'm younger permanently,
it's because right now I haven't yet
developed that capacity."
- Yeah. And also, you said she could one day catch up to her
and run as fast, she can't run as fast yet.
But also maybe just, but you run super-fast.
For you- - Yes, it doesn't have to be.
I think that's a really good point
is it's not in comparison.
So when a kid says, "I hated that she runs faster.
Everybody prefers her,
or everybody at school thinks she's the actress
who gets the parts in the school play.
I get the tiny part in the school play."
Well, what if you say to the child who got the tiny part,
"I loved watching you out there on stage.
I saw," it's a non-speaking part,
"I saw the way your eyes gleamed in the darkness
and you were the cat slithering across the stage.
I loved watching you."
"But my sister, she had the speaking role."
"And you know what?
Your sister did great,
and we'll tell her how great that was you and I
that we liked it, because she inspired us.
But what I am talking to you about right now darling,
is I loved watching you be that slithering cat."
- Yeah, and you know what comes to mind for me
when you say that is just comparing it to nature.
Because I feel like a cheetah
isn't in competition with a pigeon, whatever,
it doesn't matter, right?
Yes, that is a faster animal,
but they each have their qualities
and obviously, are beautiful.
And I feel like it's helpful for kids to remember,
we're not actually taking notes and comparing you.
Also, running fast for the joy of it or performing,
because it's what you wanna do,
and there's so many different ways of doing that.
So, just trying to bring it back down, not to...
Like sidestepping the comparison
of what you just did there was,
you were awesome on stage, she was awesome on stage,
you're both great in different ways
and it's not even comparable.
So yeah, I think that's beautiful.
Thank you.