ALSO JOINING US, FRANK FIGLIUZZI
FROM THE FBI AND AN MSNBC
NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST.
JOHN, I WANT TO START WITH YOU
ON THAT REPORTING.
IT DONALD TRUMP STILL
FUNCTIONING AS THE COUNTRY’S
COMMANDER IN CHIEF IF HIS STAFF
ARE GOING TO DEFY THE ORDERS AND
MARK MILLEY HAS ASSURED NANCY
PELOSI THAT TRUMP CAN’T HAVE
ACCESS TO THE NUCLEAR CODES?
>> WELL, IT IS A REALLY
INTERESTING AND ACTUALLY
TROUBLING QUESTION.
IT RAISES REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE
QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CHAIN OF
COMMAND AND WHERE WE’RE AT RIGHT
NOW WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
BUT THE REALITY IS, BASED ON MY
REPORTING OVER THE LAST 48
HOURS, THE IDEA OF A 25th
AMENDMENT, WHILE IT WAS RAISED
IN THE HEAT OF WEDNESDAY, IT WAS
NEVER SEEN AS A SERIOUS
POSSIBILITY BY MEMBERS OF
CABINET.
FOR MANY REASONS.
BUT ALSO BECAUSE IT IS SEEN AS
UNWORKABLE IN THE SHORT TIME
PERIOD.
BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED INSTEAD IS
KIND OF A DE FACTO 25th
AMENDMENT WHICH IS THEY ARE
OPERATING AS IF HE IS NOT THE
PRESIDENT, MANY OF THESE SENIOR
OFFICIALS, IGNORING HIM AND
STAYING AWAY FROM THE WEST WING,
STAYING AWAY FROM HIM HOPING
THAT HE DOESN’T CALL.
AND JUST CONTINUING TO RUN THEIR
AGENCIES AND RUN THE GOVERNMENT
WITHOUT HIS INVOLVEMENT.
AND WITH A STEELY AND MUCH MORE
STEELY NOW RESOLVE THAT SHOULD
HE ISSUE ANY ORDERS THAT THEY
DEEM DANGEROUS OR UNLAWFUL, THEY
WILL FLATLY REFUSE THOSE ORDERS.
THAT IS WHERE WE’RE AT.
>> JONATHAN SWAN, IS PAT
CIPOLLONY STICKING AROUND TO
KEEP TRUMP OUT OF LEGAL TROUBLE.
IT LOOKS LIKE HE DELIVERED A
HOSTAGE TAPE YESTERDAY BECAUSE
HE COULD BE WARNED THAT HE COULD
BE IN MORE TROUBLE THAN HE
ALREADY IS.
>> WELL PART OF THE REASON THAT
THERESIDENT HAS GOT HIMSELF
INTO THE TROUBLE THAT HE’S
GOTTEN INTO BECAUSE HE HASN’T
BEEN LISTENING TO HIS WHITE
HOUSE COUNCIL.
HE’S BEEN INVITING IN OTHER
LAWYERS, I USE THAT WORD IN A VERY LOOSE SENSE, TO GIVE HIM
VERY LOOSE SENSE, TO GIVE HIM
ADVICE ABOUT THINGS THAT A-- THA
ARE UNHINGED AND UNTETHERED TO
THE LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION.
SO EVEN BEFORE THE ELECTION, BUT
HE WAS TREATED LIKE GARBAGE
SINCE THE ELECTION ACCORDING TO
FRIENDS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE
OBSERVED THIS FIRSTHAND.
HE DOESN’T HAVE ANY SWAY OVER
THE PRESIDENT.
I’M TOLD BY A SOURCE FAMILIAR
WITH THE CONVERSATION THAT HE
HAS DISCUSSED WITH THE PRESIDENT
HIS POTENTIAL LEGAL EXPOSURE
OVER SOME OF HIS RHETORIC IN THE
WAKE -- THESE CONVERSATIONS HAVE
HAPPENED AFTER THE RIOTS ON THE
CAPITOL.
I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THAT WAS
PART OF THE REASON YOU SAW THAT
VIDEO YESTERDAY WHICH THE
PRESIDENT CLEARLY DIDN’T WANT TO
DELIVER.
I KNOW MANY OF HIS OTHER STAFF
STRONGLY URGED HIM TO DO THIS.
IT TOOK A LONG TIME AND IT WAS
PRETTY MUCH UNIVERSAL ACROSS THE
STAFF THAT HE HAD TO DO THIS.
BUT YOU SAW SOMEONE YESTERDAY
WHO LOOKED KIND OF SPOOKED,
ACTUALLY, BY WHERE THINGS HAVE
HEADED AND HOW QUICKLY THE
SITUATION HAS FALLEN OUT OF HIS
CONTROL.
>> HE IS, JONATHAN SWAN,
ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT VIOLENCE.
HE’S ON THE RECORD CHEERING FOR
HIS SUPPORTERS TO BEAT UP
PROTESTERS AT HIS RALLIES.
HE HAS CALLED FOR ALL SORTS OF
PEOPLE TO BE LOCKED UP.
HE GLORIFIES VIOLENCE.
IS HE UPSET THAT THIS
INSURRECTION WAS VIOLENT?
>> I DON’T SORT OF KNOW IS THE
TRUTHFUL ANSWER.
I HAVEN’T SPOKEN TO HIM SINCE
THIS HAPPENED.
AND CERTAINLY WHILE IT WAS
HAPPENING IN REALTIME, ACCORDING
TO PEOPLE, HE WAS NOT UPSET.
IN FACT, HE SEEMED TO -- WHEN
THEY WERE STORMING THE CAPITOL,
ALMOST BE QUITE SATISFIED THAT
PEOPLE WERE SO ANGRY THAT HE --
ALL OF THE SUPPORTERS HAD COME
OUT FOR HIM.
AND OF COURSE HE ENCOURAGED THEM
TO GO DOWN TO THE CAPITOL AND
SAID THEY HAD TO SHOW STRENGTH.
I UNDERSTAND IN THE LAST 24
HOURS AS HE’S WATCHED SOME OF
HIS TOP OFFICIALS RESIGN, AS
HE’S WATCHED CONGRESSIONAL
REPUBLICANS DENOUNCE HIM
INCLUDING ALLIES OF HIS LIKE
SENATOR TOM COTTON, I THINK HE’S
SEEN THE SITUATION FALL OUT OF
HAND AND THAT IS BEEN -- THAT