JARED BALL: What's up, world. Welcome back to The Real News Network. I'm Jared Ball.
A lot's been happening in the world, and or editorial team has decided to take our inner
circle's conversations about what we talk about in those meetings and plan out for The
Real News Network to the community. And given that, all that has gone on in the past few
days with Rachel Dolezal, and the exposure perhaps of her racial identification, we thought
we would bring the conversation we were having as an editorial team, again, to the community.
So to do that we're going to get started real quick by playing a clip where we actually
interviewed Rachel Dolezal here at The Real News Network some time ago, and we want to
play that clip for you right now.
RACHEL DOLEZAL: As one of the very few female presidents of the NAACP, I deal with on a
regular basis just the intersection of really triple jeopardy, of race, class, and gender.
And just the, the struggle for our black women to be respected for the last 400 years in
this [country]. Not only are we mourned less in death, but our leaders are also--black
women as leaders are also given less of a platform and are less respected, and less
recognized. So I really think that the value of, of our lives and our leadership is an
intersection that I'm just really interested in supporting.
And so I really think that it starts with black women valuing black women. And that's
really a kind of a revolutionary act, just to love ourselves. And just to keep, keep
strong, and not necessarily to underscore the myth that our lives value less but actually
just to counter it and to believe that we indeed do matter equally.
BALL: So there was Rachel Dolezal talking with our correspondent Megan a little time
ago. And we know we want to, we're starting this as a series. This is the first of several
series we intend to do, a regular program we want to do here in exposing our audiences
to our editorial conversations. And we know that as of this morning Ms. Dolezal has resigned
and said that she is stepping back and wanting to remove herself from so much of the dominating
conversation.
Megan, you did that interview with her at some point. Tell us when that was and what
you thought at the time that this interview took place.
MEGAN SHERMAN: Yeah, that was about a month or so ago, probably. I interviewed her, there
was an action that some folks here in Baltimore were doing in relationship to kind of uncovering
some of the violence, the police violence that women experience across the country.
And so they were doing, like, a joint movement, there were other groups, like, doing it across
the country. And so they had one here. And I just was talking to folks who were at the
rally, talking to them about why they came out. And yeah, she said that she wanted to
be interviewed.
And initially I thought that everything that she was saying was fine. I think it's funny
looking back at the interview now, like, considering all the stuff that's come out so far. But
yeah, I thought that everything that she was saying was right on point for the most part.
I mean, if I would have known that she wasn't a black woman at the time I think my reaction
would have been a little different.
BALL: Now, I know one of the things that we wanted to talk about was why is this such
an important conversation? Why are so many people focused on this incident since it occurred,
or since this story came out? I'll turn it over to you. Angel, what do you think about
this incident, and why do you think so many people are having this conversation?
ANGEL ELLIOTT: Well, first let me talk about that clip. Like Megan said, what she said
wasn't wrong. But to understand that it comes from a person who is so ingrounded in this
lie of being a black person and they're not makes me question her sanity, because she's--what
she's saying isn't wrong. Black women do need to, we do need to value each other. But my
question is this, did she have to appropriate a black identity to support the black community?
And that's the issue that I have.
This issue of people saying, well, race and gender, they're both a social construct so
technically why couldn't, if someone can be transgender and someone could be--why couldn't
they be transracial? And I think that that's a very dangerous comparison to make. So I
think that what she did in the end, if she did fake these, these hate notes and this
hatred that she received as a black woman, and if she did feel like she had to appropriate
blackness in order to support the black community, I think that that's sending a, a bad message
to people that aren't black about what it means to be black. And to me, being able to
take on and off this black identity is white privilege in itself. So that's how I feel
about it.
TAYA GRAHAM: Absolutely. I absolutely agree. And I think what I really find problematic
is that she alleged these hate crimes, which I think really delegitimizes other people
who have come forward and experienced hate crimes. But the idea that race is a social
construction is something that I find encountered here and engaged in an interesting way. Because
in academia they always talk about how race is a social construction. But who made this
construction? I mean, the one drop rule prevented African-Americans from assimilating into white
culture officially, so why would someone choose to give up their privilege?
Well, you could argue that she profited from it. She went to Howard, and she got a full
ride. She's the head of the NAACP. She's getting on--.
BALL: In Spokane. We just want to clarify, in Spokane.
GRAHAM: Thank you, thank you. In Spokane, Washington. And then she--you know, she has
opportunities to speak on behalf of the black community doing advocacy. Perhaps she wouldn't
get as much media attention if she was simply just another white leader of the NAACP.
But honestly, I think this is an important discussion for us to have. Because it has
been a white supremacist power structure that dictated what race was to begin with. Who
is white, who is black, that established black inferiority and white superiority. So I think
this is a great way for us to address this.
BALL: What do you think, Eddie?
EDDIE CONWAY: Yeah, I'm thinking for a lot of people in the black community the problem
is how much of us black people is absorbed by white people in terms of first stealing
our culture, then stealing our complexion, and then stealing--it's like they want to,
and I was talking to one sister, and she was saying, if they could eat us they would. [Crosstalk]
And so her assuming that identity, it's, it's a bad thing because it's like she needs to
represent her feelings about the black community from her white privileged position, and take
a position and take a stand there instead of pretending like she is us and absorbing
us, and taking away our culture. And delegitimizing us like it's just been pointed out.
I think one of the things that, you know, Elvis Presley and Hound Dog, or the Beatles,
or, or, or--.
BALL: Justin Timberlake.
CONWAY: Yeah. You know, I mean, they just--and this is not a white-black thing, because that
is a social construct. But let us have our soul. Let us have our bodies. Let us have
our culture. Let us be ourself. You know, and I think that's where things have gone
awry with her. She wants to be us. She can't be us.
BALL: This is where I thought of Azealia Banks crying in her interview, which I thought a
powerful moment when she gave that interview with some commercial radio station up in New
York, about we can't even have our own culture. We, everything we produce is taken.
But the two points that are, that I would like to further investigate with you all is,
what are the economic purposes or underpinnings to all of this? Is there a material gain?
And then this, this other question of--well, if this was to occur, why couldn't the white
ideal be John Brown, who did not have to assume another identity to perform one of the greatest
acts in human history? And then what does--and similarly, what does all this have to say
about--or the reaction nationally and internationally, about how race is discussed in this country?
So the material impact or aspects of this, and then how is race covered in this country
or discussed that is I think exposed in some of the response to all of this? Anybody have
any thoughts on that?
SHERMAN: I mean, to your last point I think something that's really interesting, I saw
a lot of articles that people were posting that was like, well you know, black women
wear straight hair to look like European women, or wear fake nails, or do things cosmetically
to change the way we look to look more European. And so one thing I found that was, that was
really troubling for me. Because there isn't the same relationship to oppression for Rachel
Dolezal. That was something that was--I'm sure she's mentally unstable.
But I do think that it is interesting when you're talking about race as a social construct
it's like, when a person wants to assume another identity or assume another race, they play
out some of the stereotypes that go along with those roles. And so I think for her it's
really interesting to see which parts of blackness she chose to assume within her own identity.
But the conversation about, like, talking about black women's struggles with identity
and self-love and stuff like that, I think it's really troubling to try to compare it
to what she's going through because I think it's something that's completely different,
but it does have some kind of parallels.
CONWAY: And I think I want to add something to that, about the economics of it. Our history
and our culture goes back beyond slavery, but a large part of our identity, our race
consciousness, if you will, comes from that experience of being exploited. Super exploited.
Our very existence here in the planet, in America right now, and having the largest
prison population in the world, having the most impoverished communities in the world,
here in America, that is, is about our identity is being black.
And I think if someone wants to really support this, want to help this, they need to do exactly
what you say. They need to be the John Brown of their community to bring those resources
from their community and give--you know, if you want to identify that black people need
help, give us your privilege. Give us your stuff. Give us back our stuff. I mean, you
know, I mean, that's the bottom line. Just give us our stuff and get out of the way.
We'll be okay. We won't even be black anymore--I'm sorry. [Crosstalk].
BALL: So of you I ask the same questions. What does this say about the coverage of race
or how race is discussed in this country, and what does it mean in terms of the material
impact of, on--.
ELLIOTT: I mean, I agree with Megan, and to my point earlier, the fact that she picked
and--she chose certain things about blackness to help physically identify herself as black
is dangerous to other people who say, I can just put on blackface, essentially, and be
black, and say 'we' black women, and do classes about kinky hair. And this is what it's going
to mean for me to be black. It's dangerous. And I think that it kind of minimizes the
struggle that black women go through on a daily basis, because it's more than about
hair. Yeah, I wear a weave. I wear just a straight weave. My nails are long. But you
know, that isn't the core of what it means to be black for me.
GRAHAM: Well, she teaches a class on the black struggle at the university. She's part-time
faculty there. And I think the idea that was discussed was the idea of consumption. And
what she has chosen to consume of the black culture. When I look at her I do see someone
who may be disturbed. Honestly.
But if we put that aside and look at her actions just simply in the intentionality, if we just
look at her intent--for example, I think it was John Griffin in like, 1961, he wrote a
book called Black Like Me. And he was, he was a reporter, and he went undercover. And
he took a drug for vitiligo and had his doctor supervise it so he could really appear to
be African-American. And so that was a story that was really an investigative journalist's
story.
So in that case, his intention I think was a noble one and actually illuminated some
aspects of the black person's experience that he--at that time we didn't have the authority
to say ourselves. We needed, unfortunately, him to do that. But when I look at her intentionality
I'm very confused.
BALL: All right. Well, there's clearly a lot of confusion going around with this issue,
and I think the way race is commonly discussed or interpreted in general. So it's perfectly
fitting that she and the rest of us express or experience some level of confusion with
all of this. For my last two cents, I would just like to recommend that we revive the
Eddie Murphy sketch from Saturday Night Live. So be careful out there. The Real News, you
never know who might be on that bus next to you.
But anyway, this is the first of many conversations we intend to have where we bring the editorial
conversations to the community, and I thank you all for breaking the ground on this first
run of it. And thank you for watching here at The Real News. We'll catch you in the whirlwind.
Peace, everybody.