EVERYBODY! LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, FRIENDS
AND NEIGHBORS, MY NEXT GUEST IS ONE OF MY
FAVORITE AUTHORS. PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE
SHOW," GEORGE SAUNDERS! IS NOT
( APPLAUSE )
♪ ♪ ♪ >> I FEEL SO HONORED.
I GET MILES DAVIS. >> Stephen: YOU HAVE THE NEW
BOOK OF SHORT STORIES HERE. IT'S CALLED "LIBERATION DAY,"
FIRST FICTION COLLECTION YOU'VE DONE SINCE YOUR NOVEL, "LINCOLN
AND THE BARDO." HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU'RE
GOING TO WRITE? FICTION IS ANYTHING THAT CAN
HAPPEN. >> YEAH.
>> Stephen: AFTER YOU WRITE THAT NOVEL, HOW DO YOU DECIDE
WHAT THE NEXT THING YOU'RE GOING TO WORK ON THAT'S GOING TO TAKE
YEARS? >> YEAH.
FOR ME, HONESTLY, IT'S JUST, LIKE, FUN.
IF IT'S NOT FUN, I DON'T WANT TO DO IT.
AND THE MOST FUN THING IS IF YOU START A STORY AND YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, SO JUST TO KIND OF CONFUSE YOURSELF IN
THAT WAY, AND THEN JUST SEE WHERE IT GOES.
BECAUSE THE IDEA IS IF I KNOW TOO WELL WHAT I'M GOING TO DO,
AND I JUST DO THAT, THAT'S A BIG BUZZ KILL.
GERALD STERN SAID-- I HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP FOR TV-- HE SAID IF
YOU START OUT TO WRITE A POEM ABOUT TWO DOGS MAKING LOVE AND
YOU WRITE A POEM ABOUT TWO DOGS MAKING LOVE, AND YOU WROTE A
POEM ABOUT TWO DOGS MAKING LOVE. SO THE IDEA IS YOU'RE-- EINSTEIN
WAS A LITTLE MORE CLASSY. HE SAID NO WORTHY PROBLEM IS
EVER SOLVED ON THE PLANE OF ITS ORIGINAL CONCEPTION.
THE YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN AND BE WILLING TO ABANDON IT.
FOR ME, A STORY IS A GREAT FORM FOR THAT.
>> Stephen: I STARTED OFF IN IMPROVISATION, AND SORT OF THE
IDEA THERE WAS DISCOVERY IS BETTER THAN INVENTION.
>> THAT'S PERFECT. >> Stephen: TOGETHER, YOU'LL
DISCOVER SOMETHING ON STAGE THAT NEITHER ONE OF YOU COULD HAVE
INVENTED. >> RIGHT.
BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU'RE KIND OF CONDESCENDING.
IF I HAVE A STORY AND I KNOW WHAT IT IS, AND I JUST TELL IT,
IT ENDS UP BEING A BIT OF A LECTURE.
IT'S LIKE IF YOU WONT A DATE AND HAD INDEX CARDS: "7:00 P.M., ASK
ABOUT HER MOTHER." YOU MIGHT DO THAT BECAUSE IT'S
ANXIETY-REDUCING. >> Stephen: SURE.
>> BUT IN THE END, IT'S NOT A RELATIONSHIP.
I LOVE, ESPECIALLY AS I'M GETTING OLDER, THE IDEA THAT
YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE A REALLY INTIMATE COMMUNICATION WITH SNUB
DON'T KNOW, AND YOU'RE TRYING TO THINK OF BET OF THEM AS YOU DO
THAT. >> Stephen: WHEN YOU WRITE
NONFICTION IS IT DIFFERENT, THOUGH?
BECAUSE IN NONFICTION, ARE YOU GOING IN WITH MORE OF A CLEAR
INTENTION? >> YES, BUT THEN THE WORLD WILL
KICK YOUR ASS. BECAUSE I DID A STORY WHERE I
DROVE THE WHOLE MEXICAN BORDER FROM EAST TO LEFT.
I'M A LIBERAL, LEFT OF GANDHI, BASICALLY.
SO I KNEW WHAT I WANTED TO BE TRUE.
AND YOU GO INTO THE BIG, CRAZY WORLD.
AND IT JUST SAYS NOPE, TOO SIMPLE.
NOPE, TOO SIMPLE. THE END I CAME OUT IN SAN DIEGO,
AND I WAS LEAVING AND THESE TWO BEAUTIFUL BORDER GUARDS CAME
RIDING DOWN ON HORSEBACK. "OH, YOU'RE A REPORTER."
YEAH "WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND OUT?" I TOLD THEM, AND THEY DISMANTLED
EVERYTHING I THOUGHT. IN BOTH FICTION AND NONFICTION,
FOR ME THE GOAL IS TO GET TO THE PLACE WITH YOUR USUAL JUDGEY
MIND HAS BEEN QUIETED, ALL YOUR USUAL EASY OPINIONS GET, YOU
KNOW, REDUCED. AND YOU'RE JUST IN A KIND OF
HOLY STATE OF NOT KNOWING ANYTHING, WHICH I THINK IS KIND
OF A SACRED PLACE, REALLY. >> Stephen: I HAD AN
OPPORTUNITY TO READ A STORY OF YOURS CALLED "LOVE LETTER" FROM
A GRANDFATHER TO A GRANDSON. AND IT'S PLACED IN A SOMEWHAT
FICTIONAL POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE GRANDSON IS ASKING FOR
ADVICE FROM HIS GRANDFATHER. YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO THE PEOPLE--
YOU HAVE A VERY INTERESTING STORY ABOUT HOW THAT STORY CAME
ABOUT, AND I THINK IT SPEAKS TO THAT, GOING TO A PLACE WHERE YOU
DON'T ENTIRELY KNOW-- >> FIRST LET ME KNOW, IF YOU GO
TO SYMPHONYSPACE.ORG AND WATCH THIS, WE KNOW HE'S A NATIONAL
TREASURE, BUT THAT NIGHT WE WERE THERE, STEPHEN RED READ THE
STORY, AND AT THE END OF IT THERE WAS A MOMENT OF COMPLETE--
YOU COULD HAVE HEARD A PIN DROP THAT PEOPLE WERE STUNNED.
AND THERE WAS THIS THUNDEROUS WAVE OF APPLAUSE.
AND I WAS SO GRATEFUL. I LIKED THE STORY OKAY BEFORE
YOU READ IT, BUT AFTER YOU READ IT, THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD.
THANK YOU. >> Stephen: IT WAS MY HONOR TO
READ IT. IT MAKES IT EASY WHEN IT'S A
REALLY GOOD STORY, AND THERE'S A VERY COMPLEX EMOTIONAL INTENTION
FOR THE CHARACTER THAT YOU'RE READING.
AND I'M CURIOUS ABOUT WHERE THE COMPLEXITY OF THAT STORY-- IF
YOU COULD GIVE A THUMBNAIL SKETCH OF WHAT IT WAS ABOUT.
>> IT WAS BEFORE THE 2020 ELECTION AND I WAS JUST FEELING,
YOU KNOW, AGITATED AND PISSED. AND MOSTLY I WAS FEELING ARE WE
REALLY GOING TO BLOW THIS THING, YOU KNOW?
THIS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY WE HAVE MADE BY KIND OF MUTUAL CONSENSUS
ARE WE REALLY GOING TO LET SOMETHING SO SILLY AND COMICAL,
SOMEONE SO SILLY AND COMICAL, BRING IT DOWN?
AND IT MADE ME DEEPLY SAD. SO I JUST DID WHAT I ALWAYS DO,
WHICH IS I WENT INTO THE WRITING ROOM AND KIND OF TYPED UP MY
SINCERE EMOTION. WHAT I LEARNED FROM CHEKHOV, IS
YOU CAN WRITE ANYTHING YOU WANT BUT YOU HAVE TO ATTRIBUTE IT.
I GAVE IT TO A GRANDFATHER. AND THE GRANDFATHER IS WRITING
KIND OF A LETTER OR EXPLANATION OR APOLOGY TO HIS GRANDSON WHO
IS NOW LIVING IN THIS SORT OF AUTOCRATIC REGIME, AND HE'S JUST
EXPLAINING, "HERE'S HOW IT HAPPENED."
AND WHAT YOU WANT TO HAPPEN IN A STORY IS THAT-- AGAIN, IT
SURPRISES YOU. SO IN THAT STORY-- AND YOU
CONVEYED THIS SO BEAUTIFULLY-- HE STARTS OFF SAYING, "DON'T
FIGHT BACK. JUST ENJOY WHAT YOU CAN.
JUST KEEP YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND."
AND BY THE END OF THE STORY HE KIND OF TALKS HIS WAY OUT OF IT.
AND NOW HE'S NOT SO SURE HE SHOULD BE GIVING SOMEBODY HE
LOVES THAT KIND OF ADVICE, TO BE PASSIVE.
>> Stephen: I LOVE SHORT STORIES, AS I ALWAYS HAVE.
HOW LONG IS A SHORT STORY? AND IT'S A SEMISERIOUS QUESTION.
BECAUSE THERE'S THE SHORT STORY THAT BECOMES THE NOVELLA, AND
THE NOVELLA THAT BECOMES THE NOVEL.
DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE WRITING A SHORT STORY WHEN YOU START?
AND DO YOU EVER START A SHORT STORY AND GO-- YOU'RE A PAGE IN,
AND YOU GO, "I'M DONE." >> YEAH, YEAH.
THAT CAN HAPPEN. I'VE OFTEN STARTED A STORY-- AND
THERE'S A KIND OF MOMENT WHERE A SHORT STORY WRITER WILL GO,
"THIS MIGHT BE THE NOVEL. I THINK THIS IS IT."
AND THEN YOU BLOAT IT UP FOR ANOTHER SIX MONTHS AND YOU
REALIZE IT ACTUALLY WASN'T. FOR ME, I THINK MY LITTLE TALENT
IS KIND OF LIKE A-- YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE ONE OF THOSE TOY CARS
AND WIND IT UP AND TRY TO GET IT TO GO UNDER THE COUCH AS FAST AS
POSSIBLE, QUICK. >> Stephen: THAT'S ALL IT'S
GOING TO GO FOR NOW. >> I THINK 15-20 PAGES IS KIND
OF THE IDEA. WHO KNOWS?
>> Stephen: IN ONE OF YOUR SHORT STORIES IN THIS, IT'S
ABOUT AN AUTHOR, WRITER, HAVING WRITER'S BLOCK.
DO YOU SUFFER WRITER'S BLOCK? OR ARE HAVE YOU IN THE PAST AND
WHAT DO YOU DO? >> DAVID FOSTER WALLACE SAID
WRITER'S BLOCK IS ALWAYS A CASE OF HAVING STUPIDLY ELEVATED
EXPECTATIONING. YOU LOOK AT A BLANK PAGE "I'VE
GOT TO BE TOLSTOY." YOU GO FOR A BLOCK.
AND YOU TYPE THIS CRAP-- THAT'S A TECHNICAL THING "YOU TYPE SOME
CRAP." IF YOU HAVE TASTE AND YOU
BELIEVE IN YOUR TASTE, AND YOU GO BACK TO WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN,
YOU TUNE IT UP, YOU CUT SOME STUFF, IMPROVE IT, PUT IT AWAY,
COME BACK THE NEXT DAY. FOR ME IT'S LIKE DOING THAT
HUNDREDS, MAYBE THOUSANDS OF TIMES.
AND THE REALLY WONDERFUL THING IS IF YOU'RE DOING THAT, SOMEHOW
THE STORY GETS SMARTER THAN YOU ARE, IT GETS WISER, IT GETS
KINDER, IT GETS FUNNIER. THIS GUY I'M NOT SO CRAZY ABOUT,
BUT BY THE END OF IT, WHEN THE STORY IS DONE, THAT GUY, I CAN
LIVE WITH HIM. YEAH.
>> Stephen: YOU LIVED IN CHICAGO.
HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE IN CHICAGO?
>> 20 YEARS. >> Stephen: I LIVED THERE FOR
11 YEARS. >>
( APPLAUSE )
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE ASSOCIATED WITH IMPROV.
WHAT OF CHICAGO EXISTS IN YOUR WORK?
DO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD RECOGNIZE SOMETHING ABOUT LIFE
OR THE ETHOS THERE? >> I THINK THERE'S A CERTAIN
KIND OF SWEET DARKNESS IN CHICAGO.
I'LL TELL YOU THE STORY I WAS THINKING OF.
WE HAD SOME NEIGHBORS-- WE DIDN'T KNOW THEM VERY WELL-- BUT
THE WOMAN'S MOTHER HAD PASSED AWAY.
SO MY DAD GOES TO THE FUNERAL. WE DON'T KNOW THEM VERY WELL.
BUT HE SAYS TO HER, "YOU KNOW, YOUR MOTHER LIVED TO BE 95.
SHE SEEMED TO HAVE A VERY LONG AND HEALTHY LIFE."
AND THE WOMAN SAYS, "YEAH, THIS IS THE SIXEST SHE'S EVER BEEN."
( LAUGHTER )
MAN-- AND HE CAME HOME WITH SUCH A TENDER WAY OF TELLING THAT
STORY. HE HAD SO MUCH SYMPATHY FOR HER
AND IT WAS A REALLY FUNNY MOMENT.
TO ME, THAT'S CHICAGO IN A SHUTSHELL.
>> Stephen: GEORGE, LOVELY TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU FOR BEING
HERE. >> THANK YOU.
>> STEPHEN: "LIBERATION DAY" IS AVAILABLE NOW.
GEORGE SAUNDERS, EVERYBODY! WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.