>>DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS HAS RELEASED THE RESULTS OF THEIR
INTERNAL REPORT INTO THE OCTOBER BOMBING OF THEIR HOSPITAL IN
AFGHANISTAN.
IT IS ROUGH.
>> AND PERHAPS MOST DAMNING, BEYOND JUST THE EXPLOSIONS, IT
GOES ON TO SAY --
>>
A COUPLE OF THINGS.
FIRST OFF, THEY HAD PUT UP FLAGS ON
THE COMPOUND SAYING, THIS IS A HOSPITAL.
DOCTORS WITHOUT
BORDERS.
SO IT WAS CLEAR WHAT THIS BUILDING WAS.
IT WAS NOT A
STRAY BOMB THAT WENT IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.
IN FACT --
>>IT WAS NOT COLLATERAL.
>>IT WAS THE ONLY BUILDING THAT HAD A POWER GENERATOR, IT STOOD
OUT WHERE IT WAS.
IT'S NOT LIKE WHERE THIS BOMBING HAPPENED IT
IS CHICAGO AND THERE ARE ALL THESE DIFFERENT SOPHISTICATED
BUILDINGS AND WE HIT THE WRONG ONE.
IT IS A GIANT BUILDING THAT
STANDS OUT FROM EVERYTHING ELSE, THE ONLY ONE WITH A GENERATOR,
IT HAS FLAGS ON IT, THEY TOLD THEM OVER AND OVER WHERE IT WAS,
THEY GAVE THEM THE COORDINATES TO MAKE SURE THEY DID NOT
BOMB THE HOSPITAL BY MISTAKE.
PUT THAT ASIDE, 18 DISTRESS CALLS
DURING THE BOMBING, SAYING PLEASE STOP BOMBING US, YOU ARE
BOMBING A HOSPITAL.
THE BOMBING LASTED AN HOUR.
IT IS NOT LIKE
OH NO, A BOMB LANDED IN THE WRONG PLACE, IT IS A HOSPITAL,
WHAT HAVE WE DONE?
NO, WE ARE GETTING THE DISTRESS CALLS, WE
KNOW WHERE IT IS, AND WE BOMBED OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR AN
HOURLONG CAMPAIGN.
THEN APPARENTLY ACCORDING TO THIS WE
SHOT THE DOCTORS LEAVING THE BUILDING.
UNDERSTAND SOMETHING
-- IF THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU EVER HEARD THIS, YOU FIND IT
UNBELIEVABLE.
LIKE, WE COULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT.
BUT WE ACTUALLY
HAVE A POLICY OF DOING THIS FROM TIME TO TIME.
IT IS CALLED A
DOUBLE TAP, IS A THING THAT EXISTS.
NORMALLY HOW IT WORKS
IS, YOU BOMB SOMETHING -- USUALLY IN NORTHERN PAKISTAN,
SOMETIMES YEMEN, SOMETIMES AFGHANISTAN.
AND WHEN FIRST
RESPONDERS COME, YOU HIT THEM AGAIN.
THE REASON YOU DO THAT IS
NOT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO HIT FIRST RESPONDERS IN MOST CASES,
ALTHOUGH IN THIS CASE IT IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE APPARENTLY
THEY WANTED TO HIT THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE THEY HAD THE TEMERITY TO
TREAT THE OTHER SIDE.
USUALLY YOU DO THE DOUBLE TAP BECAUSE
YOU THINK THE PEOPLE WHO WILL RUSH IN TO HELP THE BAD GUY WE
JUST HIT WILL BE FRIENDS OF THE BAD GUY AND HENCE GUILTY BY
ASSOCIATION.
THAT IS THE SAME REASON WE BOMB FUNERALS.
IF YOU
ARE LIVING UNDER THIS MYTH THAT THE U.S. ARE GREAT MORAL ACTORS
AND WE WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING WRONG AND IF WE EVER KILLED A
CIVILIAN IT WAS BY A COINCIDENCE AND COLLATERAL DAMAGE BUT WE
DIDN'T MEAN IT AND WE'RE THE GOOD GUYS -- THERE IS A CASE TO
MAKE THAT WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS IN MANY DIFFERENT CONTEXTS.
BUT
LOOK A LITTLE FURTHER.
AND I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE UNIVERSAL BAD
GUYS, I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE WORSE THAN OTHER GUYS -- I AM
SAYING WE COULD DO A LOT BETTER IF WE ARE DOING THINGS LIKE
DOUBLE TAPPING AND HITTING A HOSPITAL ON PURPOSE FOR AN HOUR.
>>I BELIEVE IT IS INCREDIBLY LIKELY THAT THE MILITARY IS
HIDING QUITE A BIT THAT MAY NEVER COME OUT.
WE HAVE A
RESPONSE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, I DON'T THINK IT IS A
GREAT RESPONSE.
THE DEVILS ADVOCATE, IF THEY WERE BEING
SHOT AT FROM THE PLANE, AND I BELIEVE THEY SAID IT WAS AN
C-130, THAT IS FLYING HIGH ENOUGH THAT IT IS UNLIKELY THAT
THEY WOULD HAVE NECESSARILY BEEN ABLE TO TELL THE IDENTITIES OF
INDIVIDUALS RUNNING FROM THE HOSPITAL.
THEY WERE STRAFING A BUILDING AND FIRING AT THE PEOPLE
THEY SAW LEAVING IT.
>>OH, THEY WERE ONLY STRAFING A HOSPITAL AS PEOPLE WERE LEAVING.
>>BUT IF THEIR STORY IS TRUE AND IT IS NOT A HOSPITAL, IT IS IN
FACT THE TALIBAN, THEN THEY SAW WHAT THEY THOUGHT WERE TALIBAN
FLEEING THE BUILDING SO THEY SHOT THEM.
I'M NOT SAYING THEY
ACCIDENTALLY SHOT THEM, BUT IF YOU BELIEVE THEIR STORY, THEY
WERE SHOOTING AT WHAT THEY THOUGHT WERE THE ENEMY.
IT IS
NOT THE SAME AS SHOOTING SOMEONE FROM 20 YARDS AWAY ON THE GROUND.
I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT IS THE TRUTH, AS I SAID I THINK
THE MILITARY IS HIDING QUITE A BIT.
>>I'M SURE THEY ARE.
BUT IF IT IS NOT AS JOHN SAYS, THEN WHAT
WAS IT, CENK?
YOU ARE SAYING THE MILITARY TARGETED THIS HOSPITAL?
>>I WILL TELL YOU WHY.
OUR LOCAL ALLIES ON THE GROUND IN
AFGHANISTAN HAD COMPLAINED TO US ABOUT THE HOSPITAL, BECAUSE THEY
ARE LIKE, WE ARE TRYING TO KILL THE TALIBAN, FIGHTING EVERY DAY,
THEN THEY GET HURT AND THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND GET TREATED.
I DON'T WANT THEM TREATED, I WANT THEM DEAD.
THAT IS WHY I SHOT
THEM.
A LOT OF RIGHT-WINGERS ARE LIKE, WHY ARE WE TREATING THE
TALIBAN?
WE SHOULD MURDER THEM ALL, GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND SLIT
THEIR THROATS.
BUT WE CAN'T, THEN YOU KNOW.
SO WHAT DO WE DO?
WHAT WE ALWAYS DO, DROP A SERIES OF BOMBS.
JOHN, TO YOUR POINT,
DO I THINK THE GUYS IN THE PLANE WERE TARGETING THE DOCTORS
SPECIFICALLY?
I HOPE TO GOD THEY WERE NOT.
I'M SURE THAT PART OF
THE RATIONALE WAS, THEY BOUGHT INTO OUR ALLIES, THERE ARE SOME
IMPORTANT TALIBAN GUYS IN A HOSPITAL, THEY KNOW IT IS A
HOSPITAL, THEY CAN'T SAY THEY DIDN'T KNOW.
THEY ARE LIKE, WE
HAVE TO BREAK SOME EGGS TO MAKE THIS OMELETTE.
SO I WILL HIT THE
HOSPITAL ANYWAY, I KNOW A COUPLE DOCTORS WILL DIE, BUT MAINLY
WANT TO KILL THE TALIBAN GUYS.
BUT IF THE GUYS ARE FLEEING THE
HOSPITAL, DON'T ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER IT IS A DOCTOR OR
NURSE OR TALIBAN GUY.
IN YOUR BEST CASE SCENARIO THEY CAN'T
SEE WHO IT IS, SO THAT IS WHY THEY ARE NOT -- THEY MIGHT NOT
BE TARGETING DOCTORS, BUT THAT MEANS I DON'T CARE IF IT IS A
DOCTOR FLEEING A HOSPITAL.
I WILL SHOOT EVERYTHING THAT COMES OUT OF THAT BUILDING.
>>WHICH CHOMSKY WOULD MAKE THE POINT THAT THAT IS EVEN LESS
MORAL THAN A GUY WHO MURDERS SOMEONE ON PURPOSE.
BECAUSE WHEN
YOU MURDER SOMEONE ON PURPOSE, YOU AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE
HUMANITY OF THAT PERSON.
AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER SOMEONE AS
COLLATERAL DAMAGE, THEN THEY ARE JUST LIKE ANTS THAT YOU ARE
STEPPING ON AS YOU WALK DOWN THE STREET.
THAT IS WHAT WE ARE
DOING.
THIS IS A WAR CRIME, WHICH, WE HAVE COMMITTED LOTS OF
WAR CRIMES SINCE 9/11, NONE OF THEM GET PROSECUTED BECAUSE WE
ARE THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
WE ARE COMMITTING WAR
CRIMES TO GO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING VICTIMS OF WAR CRIMES?
AND
THE CRAZY TALIBAN?
THEY ARE SO CRAZY THAT THEY CUT PEOPLE'S
HEADS OFF, WE ONLY SHOOT DOCTORS AND WE USE A C-130 WHICH WE KNOW
WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE IN RESIDENTIAL OR POPULATED AREAS.
WE ARE NOT THE GOOD GUYS.
WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO SORT OUT?
WE
ARE NOT THE GOOD GUYS OVER THERE.
I DON'T KNOW WHY WE ARE
THERE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE THINK WE ARE DOING, BUT 30
MILLION MORE DOLLARS FOR BOMBS NEXT YEAR, I GUARANTEE YOU IT
WILL BE MORE FUCKED UP AFTER THAT $30 MILLION OF BOMBING THAN
IT IS NOW.
IT GETS WORSE AND WORSE, UNTIL THEY FINALLY DO
COME START ATTACKING US HERE IN AMERICA.
THERE IS ALL THIS
BULLSHIT ABOUT WE HAVE TO FIGHT THEM OVER THERE -- JOHN MCCAIN
JUST SAID THAT AGAIN ON NPR, FIGHT THEM OVER THERE SO THEY
DON'T EXPORT TERROR HERE.
EVENTUALLY THEY WILL.
I COULD GO
ON AND ON, THIS IS A WAR CRIME, IT WILL NOT BE PROSECUTED.
>>THEY MADE A MISTAKE HERE, BECAUSE THEY BOMBED WESTERNERS.
IF THEY HAD DONE WHAT THEY ALWAYS DO, WHICH IS BOMB AFGHANS
AND PAKISTANIS, NOBODY WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT.
HO-HUM.
>>IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THE DRONE BOMBINGS WE DO KILL
MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE, NOBODY CARES.
>>THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE.
I KNOW I AM
PROBABLY ALREADY BEING ATTACKED IN THE COMMENTS FOR BEING
INSUFFICIENTLY CRITICAL -- MY DEFENSE OF THE MOTIVATION IN
ATTACKING IT IS NOT AN IDEALISTIC ONE, IT IS NOT WE ARE
THE GOOD GUYS, IT IS PURELY A PRAGMATIC DEFENSE.
IF DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS IS THERE, THEIR POLICY IS
ALWAYS TO TAKE IN ANYONE.
THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY HAVE SOME ENEMIES THERE, THAT MAKES
SOME SENSE BUT THAT IS AN ARGUMENT TO ALWAYS BOMB
DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS HOSPITALS.
TO TAKE OUT A FEW TALIBAN WHEN YOU KNOW THAT THAT IS GOING
TO BE INTERNATIONAL NEWS --
WHEN YOU BOMB THAT, THAT WILL BE THE STORY NEXT DAY.
IT IS NOT A RANDOM HOSPITAL, IT IS DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS.
>>SO WHY WOULD THEY DO IT?
>>THEY WOULD POTENTIALLY DO IT IF THEY HAD BEEN -- EITHER THEY
HAD BAD INTEL OR HAD BEEN PURPOSELY DECEIVED BY
OUR AFGHAN ALLIES.
>> BUT JOHN, IT WAS A BOMBING THAT LASTED AN HOUR, THEY GOT
18 MESSAGES.
>>I GET ALL THAT, BUT TO ME THE IDEA THAT WE WILL TAKE OUT
A COUPLE TALIBAN AT THE EXPENSE OF --
>>I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
YOUR POINT IS LOGICAL.
IT IS NOT
WORTH THE PR DISASTER THAT IT IS LIKELY TO BECOME, SO IT IS
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
WHY WOULD THE U.S. MILITARY DO IT, EVEN IF
THEY HAD BAD INTENTIONS?
BUT IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE COMING AT IT
FROM THE WRONG PERSPECTIVE.
THEY HAVE BEEN THERE TOO LONG, IN
THEIR BUBBLE THERE IS NO PERSPECTIVE.
THEY ARE IN THE
JUNGLE, PROVERBIALLY SPEAKING.
EVERY DAY THEY KILL, THEY KILL,
AND THEY HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH EVERYTHING.
SO THEY FEEL LIKE
THEY ARE IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 13
YEARS, WE ARE STILL LOSING TO THE TALIBAN ñ IN FACT THE
TALIBAN HAD TAKEN KUNDUZ RECENTLY RIGHT BEFORE THE
ATTACK, THEY ARE FRUSTRATED, THEY HAVE NEVER HAD ANY
CONSEQUENCES FOR ANY BOMBING THEY HAVE EVER DONE, ALL THE
INNOCENTS THAT WERE KILLED --
SO IT IS LIKE VIETNAM, THE MORE YOU STRIP AWAY THE HUMANITY
AND THE RULES, AT SOME POINT SOMEBODY FORGETS THERE ARE RULES.
I THINK THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
>>I THINK THAT HAPPENED IN MARCH 2002 WHEN WE FORGOT THERE WERE
ANY RULES.
AND THIS THEORY THAT WE -- WHY WOULD THE MILITARY
BOMB A HOSPITAL BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT WOULD LOOK BAD?
I DON'T
KNOW IF YOU GUYS REMEMBER, WE INVADED IRAQ ILLEGALLY, KILLED
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, IT LOOKED BAD, WE DON'T GIVE A
FUCK.
THEY WANT TO GO INTO IRAN NOW, NOBODY GIVES A SHIT.
THERE IS NO MORALITY INVOLVED.
>>I AM NOT MAKING A MORAL ARGUMENT, SIMPLY A PRAGMATIC ONE.
>>YOU WOULD THINK IT MAY BE MORE RADIOACTIVE WITH WESTERNERS, BUT
CENK EXPLAINS, NO, AT SOME POINT THE WESTERNERS HAVE TO BE PART
OF IT TOO.
PLAY WITH FIRE, GET BURNED.
THAT IS INSANITY, BUT --
>>IT IS AMAZING TO ME THAT THIS IS STILL GOING ON, AND IT IS
BECAUSE THE WAY THEY HAVE RIGGED THE WARS.
IT IS BECAUSE NOBODY
HAS SKIN IN THE GAME.
LESS THAN 1% OF THE COUNTRY IS INVOLVED IN
THESE WARS, POOR PEOPLE FROM SMALL COMMUNITIES WITH NO JOBS
THAT HAVE TO JOIN THE MILITARY, THEY GOT RID OF THE DRAFT --
THAT WAS THE WORST THING.
IF WE HAD A DRAFT, PEOPLE WOULD CARE
AGAIN THAT WE HAVE NONSTOP BOMBING.
LET'S REMEMBER, ON TOP
OF OUR DEFENSE BUDGET THEY ADDED $30 BILLION FOR MORE BOMBING IN
THE MIDDLE EAST.
BERNIE SANDERS'S PROGRAM TO GIVE FREE
COLLEGE TO EVERYONE WOULD COST 60 BILLION.
WE ARE LIVING IN PERPETUAL WAR FOR PERPETUAL PEACE AND
EVERYONE KNOWS IT AND NO ONE GIVES A SHIT.
>>TO JIMMY'S POINT ABOUT WHY ARE WE THERE, A LOT OF RIGHT-WINGERS
WILL SCREAM THEY ATTACKED US, AL QAEDA ATTACKED US FROM THEIR
BASE IN AFGHANISTAN.
OKAY, THAT WAS IN 2001.
GRANTING THAT
POINT, IT IS 14 YEARS LATER.
A STARTLING THING I SAW WAS A POLL
THEY DID, THE BRAVE POLLSTERS, THEY RISKED THEIR LIVES
TO DO THIS, THEY WENT TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF AFGHANISTAN
AND ASKED THEM WHY ARE THE AMERICANS IN YOUR COUNTRY?
TWO
AMAZING THINGS OUT OF THAT.
MOST OF THEM SAID, WHAT COUNTRY?
MOST
OF THEM DON'T KNOW WHAT AFGHANISTAN IS.
THEY KNOW WHAT
THEIR VALLEY IS, THEY HAVE NO CONCEPT OF AFGHANISTAN AS A
NATION.
THE SECOND ONE WAS, OVER 90% OF THEM HAD NEVER HEARD OF
9/11.
THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE ARE DOING THERE.
THEIR ONLY
THING IS, THEY ARE BOMBING US SO WE HAVE TO FIGHT BACK.
THIS IS
THE PERPETUAL WAR WE HAVE STARTED.
HAS IT BROUGHT US
PEACE?
IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE IT.