>>> BY THE WAY, I JUST HAVE TO SAY -- I’M SORRY, WILLIE.
>> WILLIE WAS JUST ABOUT TO
SPEAK.
SPEAK. >> WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A
VERY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION WITH
ANDREW McCABE, BUT, MIKA, IT’S
TIME TO GIVE OUT OUR DAILY
SCORECARD.
SCORECARD. >> YES.
>> YES. >> HE’S SUMMONED FOR CHRIS
MATTHEWS -- SUBBING FOR CHRIS
MATTHEWS.
MATTHEWS. HOW DID HE DO ON THE AIR?
IT WAS GOOD.
>> IT WAS BETTER.
>> WE TOLD KORNACKI, YOU HAVE TO
BE REALLY PUNCHY.
>> HIS OPENING LINE.
>> THINGS ARE REALLY DISTURBING
WHEN YOU LOOK -- MIKA WAS LIKE,
TWO SYLLABLES, LIKE, MELTDOWN,
LET’S PLAY "HARDBALL"!
>> WHAT WILL HE DO IF HE HAS
ANDY McCABE ON?
WHAT SHOULD YOU DO?
>> McCABE MELTDOWN, LET’S PLAY
"HARDBALL"!
"HARDBALL"! >> STORM CLOUDS OVER THE WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. >> NO.
>> NO. STORM CLOUDS, LET’S PLAY
"HARDBALL."
"HARDBALL." GOOD COVER.
GOOD COVER. >> ALL RIGHT.
>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING, WITH
ALL YOUR REGRETS, YOUR BIGGEST
REGRET YOU CAME ON THIS SHOW?
YOU CAN SAY YES?
>> NO.
>> NO. THIS HAS BEEN GREAT.
>> HE LOOKS REALLY
UNCOMFORTABLE.
UNCOMFORTABLE. >> HIS NEW BOOK IS "THE THREAT,
HOW THE FBI PROTECTS AMERICA IN
THE AGE OF TERROR AND TRUMP."
I WILL ASK YOU ABOUT THIS 20
MINUTE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD
ROSENSTEIN.
ROSENSTEIN. THERE HAS BEEN SOME DISCUSSION
ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID ON "60
MINUTES," NOT IN THE BOOK.
CAN YOU CLARIFY WHAT
CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH ROD
ROSENSTEIN AND WHAT HE WANTED TO
DO.
DO. >> LET ME PUT YOU IN THAT WEEK.
ROD AND I HAD A SERIES OF
MEETINGS IN THE WAKE OF JIM’S
FIRING.
FIRING. FOUR MEETINGS BETWEEN THE TIME
JIM WAS FIRED AND WE WENT TO
CONGRESS TO BRIEF THE WORK OF
THE SPECIAL COUNSEL AND WORK WE
HAD DONE.
HAD DONE. THOSE WERE INCREDIBLY FRAUGHT
CONVERSATIONS, SOME WITH ROD AND
I AND SOME WITH OTHER PEOPLE.
WE WERE GRAPPLING WITH AN ISSUE
WHAT TO DO ABOUT A PRESIDENT WHO
MIGHT HAVE COMMITTED A FEDERAL
CRIME AND MIGHT BE A NATIONAL
SECURITY RISK.
SECURITY RISK. >> WAIT A SECOND.
WHAT IS THE NATIONAL SECURITY
RISK YOU THINK HE MAY HAVE
POSED.
POSED. >> IF THE PRESIDENT OBSTRUCTED
JUSTICE FOR THE PURPOSE OF
NEGATIVELY IMPACTING OUR ABILITY
TO INVESTIGATE THE RUSSIAN
INTERFERENCE WITH THE CAMPAIGN
AND RUSSIAN CONNECTIONS WITH HIS
OWN CAMPAIGN EFFORT, WHY WOULD A
PRESIDENT DO THAT?
WHY WOULD THE PRESIDENT NOT WANT
THE FBI TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE
RUSSIANS HAD BEEN UP TO IN OUR
POLITICAL PROCESS.
POLITICAL PROCESS. >> BASED ON THAT YOU WERE
DISCUSSING THE 25th AMENDMENT
THAT DISCUSSED REMOVING A
PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE.
THE CONVERSATION WASN’T ABOUT
THE 25th AMENDMENT.
>> THAT’S WHAT THE 25th
AMENDMENT.
AMENDMENT. >> ROD BROUGHT IT UP IN A WIDE
RANGING CONVERSATION.
RANGING CONVERSATION. IT’S NOT SOMETHING HE TOOK ANY
WIDE ACTION TO PURSUE.
I DON’T KNOW OF ANY OTHER
MEETINGS WITH DISCUSSIONS OF IT.
IT WAS SIMPLY ONE TOPIC IN THE
MIDST OF A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES
WE WERE THINKING ABOUT AND
WORKING IN OUR HEADS AT THAT
TIME.
TIME. >> DID HE PRESENT THAT TO OTHER
CABINET OFFICIALS BECAUSE HE HAD
TO COUNT HEADS TO SEE IF I HAVE
ENOUGH VOTES TO REMOVE THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. >> NOT THAT I’M AWARE OF.
>> WHAT ABOUT WEARING A WIRE?
>> ROD OFFERED TO WEAR A WIRE,
SAID HE COULD WEAR ONE.
HE WAS NEVER SEARCHED OR PATTED
DOWN WHEN HE WENT IN AND OUT OF
THE WHITE HOUSE.
IT WAS A REMARKABLE THING FOR A
DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL --
>> WERE YOU STUNNED WHEN HE MADE
THAT OFFER?
THAT OFFER? >> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. >> HE CLAIMED LATER HE WAS
JOKING.
JOKING. OTHER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM SAID HE
WAS NOT JOKING.
WHAT WAS YOUR OPINION?
>> I NEVER HAD THE SENSE ROD WAS
JOKING.
JOKING. I DIDN’T TAKE THE COMMENT AS
SARCASTIC OR HUMOROUS.
IT WAS AN OFFER HE MADE ON MORE
THAN ONE OCCASION NOT ONE I EVER
CONSIDERED TAKING HIM UP ON.
>> HOW MANY CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
THE 25th AMENDMENT?
>> AT LEAST ONE.
I HAVEN’T HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO
LOOK AT MY NOTES OR MEMOS SINCE
THAT TIME.
THAT TIME. I COULDN’T TELL YOU.
>> SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM WANTS
TO OPEN HEARINGS BASED ON WHAT
YOU DISCLOSED OVER THE PAST
SEVERAL DAYS, CALLS THIS
DISCUSSION OF THE REMOVAL OF A
DULLY ELECTED PRESIDENT
ATTEMPTED BUREAUCRATIC COUP.
HE’S NOT ALONE.
THE WHITE HOUSE BELIEVES THAT
AND THE NUT OF THIS BOOK WHAT
THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ACROSS THIS
COUNTRY, 60 MILLION OF THEM, WHO
VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, WHO WILL
LOOK AT THE VER CONVERSATIONS
YOU HAD ABOUT REMOVING HIM AS
SOME KIND OF COUP.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?
>> I THINK THE WORD, "COUP" AND
WORD "TREASON" ARE INFLAMMATORY
ARE INTERESTING BUT HAVE NOTHING
TO DO WITH WHAT WE WERE DOING.
>> BUT THE 25th AMENDMENT IS
SOMEONE WHO CANNOT SERVE AND
INCAPACITATED.
INCAPACITATED. DID YOU SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP
AS --
AS -- >> THAT WAS NOT MY ROLE, WILLIE.
>> DID ROD ROSENSTEIN SEE IT
THAT WAY?
THAT WAY? >> DID NOT SPECIFY THAT TO ME IN
MY CONVERSATIONS.
MY CONVERSATIONS. MY FOCUS WAS WHAT WE DO AS THE
INVESTIGATORS.
INVESTIGATORS. THE ISSUE I WAS GRAPPLING WITH
WAS NOT WHETHER OR NOT THE
PRESIDENT WAS REMOVED OR
INCAPACITATED, ABLE TO DO HIS
JOB, SHOULD HE BE INVESTIGATED.
>> WHAT WAS THE TONE OF THE
CONVERSATION?
CONVERSATION? WHAT WERE YOU ALL FEELING
EMOTIONALLY WHEN THIS CAME UP?
I’VE HEARD IT DISCUSSED IN
HUMOR, THIS CON SETTLEMENT HAS
COME UP AT DINNER TABLES IN MY
LIFE OR THIS SET.
>> AND YOU BRING IT UP EVERYDAY.
>> VERY EMOTIONALLY.
I’M JUST WONDERING --
>> NOT THAT THERE’S ANYTHING
WRONG WITH THAT.
>> WHAT THE CONTEXT OF THE
CONVERSATION WAS HOW EVERYBODY
WAS FEELING EMOTIONALLY.
WAS IT FEAR?
SHOCK?
SHOCK? WERE YOU JOKING?
WHAT ARE SOME OTHER WAYS TO
DESCRIBE HOW THIS CAME UP?
>> IT WASN’T A LOT OF HUMOR.
IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY INTENSE
PERIOD.
PERIOD. WE WERE STRUGGLING WITH THINGS
NONE OF US EVER CONFRONTED OR
THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE.
THE CONVERSATIONS WERE WIDE
RANGING TO THE POINT OF BEING
HARD TO FOLLOW.
THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS
EMOTIONAL.
EMOTIONAL. HE WAS OFTENTIMES PACING AROUND
THE ROOM, SPEAKING VERY RAPIDLY,
JUMPING FROM TOPIC TO TOPIC.
IT WAS JUST AN INCREDIBLY TRYING
TIME.
TIME. I WILL SAY THIS FOR THE DEPUTY
ATTORNEY GENERAL, AT THE END OF
THAT PROCESS HE MADE A DECISION
THAT COULD RIGHTLY BE THE ONE
THAT COULD PRESERVE FOREVER OUR
ABILITY TO PRESERVE WHAT WAS AT
THE HEART OF THIS FOR THE
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. HE ORDERED A SPECIAL COUNSEL.
>> I CAN REMEMBER THE FBI TRYING
TO WORK THE PR REGARDING TRAVEL
GATE.
GATE. A SIMILAR THING HAPPENED TO YOU
WITH REINCE PRIEBUS IN 2017.
DID HE COME TO YOUR OFFICE OR
DID YOU GO TO HIS OFFICE AND
HAVE A CONVERSATION HE WAS
TRYING TO GET YOU TO PUSH BACK
ON A "NEW YORK TIMES" ARTICLE
REGARDING TRUMP OFFICIALS AND
CONTACTS WITH RUSSIAN
INTELLIGENCE?
INTELLIGENCE? >> REINCE AND I HAD A
CONVERSATION IN HIS OFFICE THAT
MORNING ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF
ANOTHER PRE-PLANNED MEETING.
OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY,
REINCE REACHED OUT TO ME
NUMEROUS TIMES ASKING THE FBI TO
PUBLICLY DENY THE EXISTENCE OF
FISA IN A PARTICULAR SET OF
CIRCUMSTANCES.
CIRCUMSTANCES. THAT IS NOT SOMETHING WE DO, WE
DON’T CONFIRM OR DENY THE
EXISTENCE OF FISA BECAUSE IT
LEADS YOU DOWN A ROAD YOU CAN’T
COME BACK FROM.
I COULD NOT CONVINCE HIM THIS
WAS A BAD THING FOR THE FBI, BAD
THING FOR THE INTELLIGENCE
COMMUNITY, FOR THOSE REASONS
SOMETHING WE DON’T DO.
IT MIGHT CAUSE US STATIC, HARD
DAYS DEALING WITH THE MEDIA AS
WE RIDE OUT THE CONTROVERSY BUT
THAT THE SORT OF THING THE FBI
ENDURES EVERYDAY.
ENDURES EVERYDAY. >> ANDY, YOU WERE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF THE FBI, ACTING
DIRECTOR OF THE FBI FOR A BRIEF
PERIOD OF TIME, YOU HANDLE
COUNTER INTELLIGENCE
COUNTER INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATIONS.
INVESTIGATIONS. YOU HAD ON YOUR DESK EVERYDAY
YOU WENT TO WORK THINGS THAT
WOULD CAUSE MOST AMERICANS TO
STAY IN BED THEY’RE SO SCARY.
>> TRUE.
>> TRUE. >> NOW, WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE
25th AMENDMENT, YOU ADDRESSING
THE GANG OF EIGHT ABOUT THE
POSSIBLE INVESTIGATION FOR
CONSPIRACY OF THE PRESIDENT OF
THE UNITED STATES.
WE’VE MENTIONED THE WORD THAT
THE PRESIDENT MIGHT BE AN ASSET
OF RUSSIA, YET, AS YOU GO ABOUT
YOUR ORDINARY DAY TODAY, MOST
AMERICANS WOULD SAY, WE GOT ALL
THAT.
THAT. WHAT ARE YOU HAVING FOR LUNCH?
WHAT HE’S DONE IN TERMS OF
LABELING THINGS AS SHOCKING OR
STOPPING YOU IN YOUR TRACKS,
THERE’S NONE OF THAT.
WHAT’S YOUR FEELING ABOUT THAT?
>> IT’S INCREDIBLY CONCERNING TO
ME, ONE OF THE REASONS I WROTE
THE BOOK.
THE BOOK. WHAT I SAW IN MY EXPERIENCES,
PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST TWO
YEARS, WITH THE REPEATED
ATTACKS, NOT JUST ME PERSONALLY
BUT FBI INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY
IS THIS PERSISTENT EFFECT OF THE
INSTITUTION WE RELY ON TO
PRESERVE THIS COUNTRY AS A FREE
AND FAIR DEMOCRACY.
THE FACT THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO BE
FOREMOST IN MOST PEOPLE’S MIND
TROUBLES ME GREATLY AND ONE OF
THE REASONS I WROTE THE BOOK.
>> WOW.
>> WOW. GOING BACK TO PRIEBUS, I THINK
HE SAID YOU CLAIMED IT WAS TOTAL
B.S., THE "NEW YORK TIMES" STORY
WAS TOTAL B.S.
DID YOU TELL HIM THAT?
>> REINCE AND I HAD A
CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT ARTICLE.
I WON’T RELATE THE SUBSTANCE OF
THAT FOR THE SAME REASON I
WOULDN’T TALK ABOUT THAT WITH
THE MEDIA WHEN REINCE ASKED ME
LATER IN THE DAY.
>> WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
WHAT SHOULD WE BE EXPECTING FROM
THIS INVESTIGATION.
THIS INVESTIGATION. MUELLER?
MUELLER? WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?
>> THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
PEOPLE SHOULD BE CONFIDENT WHAT
THEY ULTIMATELY HEAR FROM
MUELLER AND HIS TEAM WILL BE THE
HONEST INVESTIGATIONS THEY DID,
WHETHER THEY FIND THE SMOKING
GUNS YOU THINK MIGHT BE THERE OR
NOTHING AT ALL.
I KNOW FROM WORKING WITH
DIRECTOR MUELLER OVER THE COURSE
OF 12 YEARS HE IS PERFECTLY
EQUIPPED TO DO THIS JOB, WILL DO
IT THOROUGHLY, HONESTLY AND
INDEPENDENTLY.
INDEPENDENTLY. IN TERMS OF MY OWN PREFERENCE,
WHAT I THINK SHOULD HAPPEN, I
KNOW HE WILL DELIVER THE REPORT
DUE TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AT
THE END OF HIS WORK.
I THINK THAT WORK SHOULD BE
SHARED IMMEDIATELY WITH CONGRESS
AND SHARED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE
TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, "THE
THREAT HOW THE FBI PROTECTS
AMERICA IN THE AGE OF TERROR AND
TRUMP."
TRUMP." WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE
THREAT POSED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP
IN THIS COUNTRY?
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP’S WORDS AND
HIS ACTIONS ARE MAKING IT HARDER
EVERYDAY FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN
IN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE MEN
AND WOMEN IN THE INTELLIGENCE
COMMUNITY TO DO THEIR JOBS.
THEIR JOBS IS TO KEEP US SAFE
EVERYDAY.
EVERYDAY. THAT IS A THREAT TO THE SECURITY
TO AMERICAN PEOPLE.
>> YOU THINK HE IS A NATIONAL
SECURITY THREAT.
SECURITY THREAT. >> I THINK WHAT HE’S DOING AND
SAYING IS MAKING THIS COUNTRY
LESS SAFE.
LESS SAFE. >> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO
THE PRESIDENT?
THE PRESIDENT? >> HE DOESN’T WATCH.
>> HE CALLED YOU A LIAR.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.
>> YOU KNOW, JOE, I CAN’T TELL
YOU IN A 21 YEARS CAREER IN THE
FBI I NEVER WAS IN TROUBLE FOR
ANYTHING MORE SERIOUS THAN
LOSING MY BUILDING ID.
TO LEAVE THE BUREAU,
ORGANIZATION I LOVE AFTER 21
YEARS AFTER HAVING RUN IT AS
ACTING DIRECTOR AND DEPUTY
DIRECTOR, AND TO BE BRANDED A
LIAR ON THE WAY OUT THE DOOR IS
REVOLTING TO ME, SOMETHING THAT
MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH
EVERYDAY.
EVERYDAY. I KNOW HOW I SERVED AND SERVED
THIS COUNTRY HONESTLY WITH
INTEGRITY AND WHAT I TRIED TO
GIVE PEOPLE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
SEE BEHIND THE CURTAIN WHAT THE
FBI IS ALL ABOUT, WHAT FBI
PEOPLE ARE LIKE AND WHY THEY’RE
DRAWN TO THIS WORK AND MOST
IMPORTANTLY HOW WE DO THE WORK
WE DO.
WE DO. NOT THE STORY OF FBI CORRUPTION
FALSELY PERPETRATED BY THE WHITE
HOUSE AND SUPPORTERS ON THE
HILL.
HILL. IT THIS IS THE STORY OF MEN AND
WOMEN EVERYDAY GO IN TO WORK TO
KEEP US ALL SAFE, PUT
THEIRSELVES AT GREAT RISK.
INCREDIBLE SACRIFICES ON THEIR
FAMILY TIME.
FAMILY TIME. IT IMPACTS EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR
LIFE.
LIFE. THEY DO IT DAY IN AND DAY OUT
BECAUSE THEY ARE COMMITTED TO
THIS COUNTRY.
THIS COUNTRY. >> ANDREW McCABE, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW THIS
MORNING.
MORNING. >> THANKS FOR COMING ON.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THE BOOK IS "THE THREAT HOW
THE FBI PRO-SECRETARY AMERICA IN
THE AGE OF TERROR AND TRUMP."
>>> COMING UP, SENATE MINORITY