And I
want to go now to the former CIA
director and former commander of U.S.
Central Command,
the retired Army General David Petraeus.
And General,
thank you so much for your time.
So, you know, as we're watching that
and we were talking about
Ukraine wants three
to 400 of these tanks,
but they're getting about
100 of the combined,
not all M-1 Abrams,
but also with the leopards,
you know,
each of which have their own attributes.
31 Abrams, I guess, 80 leopards.
And then the U.K.
also sending their Challenger tanks.
So when you look at
what's been promised, what does it mean?
How significantly
does it change the battle?
Well, it's hugely significant,
and it's significant
symbolically that this next step
is being taken.
It's very significant substantively
on the battlefield.
The tank is the centerpiece
of combined arms operations,
which are
what will be necessary
to have successful offensives
this summer,
maybe late spring by Ukraine,
to take back to liberate
more of the territory
that Russia has occupied
since 24 February.
That tank is the piece around
which everything else will be built.
There are infantry fighting
vehicles were already providing
those training them.
In Germany, there will be artillery.
We've provided a lot of that.
There'll be air defense engineers,
electronic warfare, EOD drones out front.
But all of this exists to get that tank
to the decisive point on the battlefield
and to keep it essentially invulnerable
from the various threats
that could be presented.
And so the tank really is a centerpiece.
And you're saying the M1 Abrams,
from your experience with it,
is as impenetrable as a vehicle is exist?
It's extraordinary.
Obviously, during the fight to Baghdad,
I was a two star general
if employed correctly.
And you keep the enemy's infantry away
with their anti-tank guided missiles,
you clear the obstacles and mines
and so forth.
That one ten, 20 millimeter
cannon is enormously powerful
and effective,
and it will take out anything else
that is out there.
But the key is
you've got to have
those as the centerpiece.
Of course, you've got to train on those.
And so there will be an effort,
I'm sure,
very quickly,
if not already ongoing,
perhaps training them on our tanks
before these tanks are procured
by General Dynamics
and then the others
that are going to come.
The later
part twos is from Germany, Poland
and the other European countries
that have them,
as well as the challengers
And again,
this is only a third of what it is
that Ukraine
would like to have in a perfect case.
This is quite a powerful.
This is this is a lot
this is multiple battalions,
probably two brigades, at least,
of armored
and mechanized
infantry forces
with all of the other elements around it.
And that can be a very powerful punch
and it could enable them
to break through in some key areas
and ideally
deny Russia
that opportunity
to support the elements in Crimea.
Directly from Russia.
So you think this does
put Crimea on the table?
I think it puts the support for Crimea.
I don't think it puts Crimea.
That's a whole different
military problem.
It could enable
the Ukrainian forces to get
the multiple arms
rocket system with the precision
missiles in range to take out
some of the very important air
and naval bases and so forth in Crimea.
But to sever the ability to support
Crimea would be of enormous
value and enormous importance.
Absolutely.
So Russia today called the tanks
enormously, extremely dangerous,
saying it takes the conflict
to a new level of confrontation.
That was the defense ministry.
Putin said this today.
Let me just play it
some
tactical units.
I have no doubt that one way or another
sovereignty will be returned to Europe.
Europe, judging
by the look of things, it's
going to take a little while longer.
All right.
So in it for the long haul.
But what do you hear here
when you hear that
they're getting ready for an offensive?
You hear those words.
Do you think
a real escalation of a nuclear situation
is on or off the table right now?
I think it's unlikely, highly unlikely,
because I think we've communicated
effectively to him
that this would put him
in a worse situation after its use
than before
And that has to continue
to be the message.
Look, we have to do everything we can
as quickly as we can to enable Ukraine
to show Russia and to show Putin that
this is not sustainable,
that this war is not sustainable
on the battlefield
where they have already lost eight times
as soldiers
in 11 months,
that they lost a nearly ten years
in Afghanistan.
And also,
by the way,
through our financial, economic
and personal sanctions
and export controls,
which we need to tighten further
to show Putin is unsustainable at home.
So when it comes to unsustainable,
a lot of people watching will say,
all right,
hundreds of thousands of Russians
have been mobilized,
many of them, some large number of them
killed already
hundreds of
thousands of young men when the mobile
first mobilization started, fled Russia.
Yes, multiple
people showed up at the right.
More fled than showed up. Okay.
Then we hear about the mass use
of prisoners as fighters. Right.
So it all kind of gives
the impression
that things are falling apart
and Russia is running out of men,
but it is not really down.
He's actually doubling down.
He's just announced in
his Ministry of defense has confirmed
that they want to increase
the size of their
armed forces by 150 to 200,000 soldiers.
Those numbers
trying to get the military industry
stood back up.
And again,
we have to convince him
that this is not going to achieve
the progress,
that this is going to be
a losing proposition, because until then,
it will not be meaningful negotiations.
And just on this, though, his willingness
that he's putting out there
to continue with this,
the fact
that there are actually
the numbers of people,
if you're going to throw them out there
to die, to do it,
and a lot more people in Russia,
which is what they're doing, by the way,
they're not well trained,
they're not well equipped.
They're just pushing them
into these battles like Seoul, the DA in
bad mood,
taking massive casualties
for very incremental gains.
And what they eventually
take control of
is they have largely destroyed
in the process of actually seizing.
We're looking at solid art,
but does Ukraine need actual
boots on the ground assistance
to win or not?
We're not going to do that.
That's just not in the cards whatsoever.
There is not going to be
that kind of support
and these
these lines have been drawn
very, very clearly
by President
Biden and NATO's secretary general,
other leaders of NATO's countries.
We should be doing everything we can
to enable Ukraine
by the way,
keep in mind
that Ukraine, a country less than one
third, the population of Russia, right.
As out generated forces.
In other words, it's done
better recruiting,
training and equipping
and employing
additional combat
capability supported
by, you know, $27 billion just in arms
assistance from the United States
alone, as well as others.
All right.
General Petraeus, thank you very much.
Pleasure.
Wonderful to see you here on set.