Geoff: A tough and difficult
fight.
That's how the chairman of the
joint chiefs, general mark
Milley, today described
Ukraine's effort to retake
territory in the east and south.
As William brangham explains,
Ukrainian forces have been
slowed by minefields and intense
Russian resistance.
William: Raining from the sky,
onto Ukrainian ports, is what
the Russians call revenge.
>> The Russian armed forces
delivered a group strike of
retribution at facilities where
terrorist acts against the
Russian Federation were being
prepared.
William: But Ukraine claims its
air defense teams shot down
almost all the Russian missiles
and drones.
Falling debris did damage some
port facilities and people's
homes.
In the port city of Odessa,
Ukrainian police helped rescue
an elderly man, injured and
trapped underneath rubble.
Russia says they are exacting
revenge for the alleged
Ukrainian attack on a key bridge
that links Russia to annexed
crimea.
And it came a day after Russia
suspended a deal that allowed
Ukraine to ship vital grain
supplies from Odessa to the rest
of the world.
Meanwhile, the much larger
push against Russia's invasion
continues.
With intense fighting along the
eastern and southern fronts, as
Ukraine tries to retake land
occupied by Russia.
Five weeks into its
counteroffensive, Ukraine claims
to have liberated several
villages, including in the east
and southeast, but so far, the
gains have been small.
One estimate says that along the
930 mile-long frontline, Ukraine
has only recaptured about 98
square miles of land.
In an interview on Russian TV
yesterday, president Vladimir
Putin said Ukraine's advance is
failing.
>> All attempts by the enemy to
break through our defenses have
not been successful for the
entire time of the offensive.
William: And days before,
president zelenskyy acknowledged
that Russian resistance was
intense.
>> We all need to understand
very clearly that Russian forces
on our southern and eastern
lands are doing everything they
can to stop our soldiers.
Everyone who repels enemy
attacks, well done.
I am grateful to every one of
our soldiers.
William: Ukrainian soldiers are
facing deeply dug-in Russian
forces who have constructed and
fortified hard-to-overcome
obstacles, including these so
called teeth barricades, and
miles of concentrated minefields
that Ukraine is painstakingly
trying to remove.
Ukraine is asking for more
u.s.-made tools for this job
such as mine clearing line
charges, or miclics, and
Bangalore explosives, which are
used to detonate them.
>> The casualties that the
Ukrainians are suffering on this
offensive, are not so much from
Russian air power, they are from
minefields.
That's what the coalition is
trying to provide them.
Additional mine-clearing,
mclics, Bangalores, that sort of
thing in order to continue to
make their way through the
minefields.
I'm confident that they can do
this.
William: Last week the U.S. Also
started sending the Ukrainians
clustered new nations,
controversial weapons that can
rain down multiple smaller
bomblets over a wide area.
But the U.S. Has thus far not
agreed to give Ukraine
long-range missiles like those
that France and Britain are
already supplying.
While the debate in the west
continues over how best to help
the Ukrainians in their fight,
the Ukrainian soldiers on the
frontlines have to make do with
what they have, today.
>> We shot at enemy positions so
they don't accumulate their
forces and think about doing
something evil.
We try to destroy as many
enemies as we can.
William: For more on the
Ukrainian offensive and its
prospects for success we get two
views.
Retired colonel Gary espinas
spent 26 years in the army
focused on field artillery and
was director for Russia and the
black sea in the office of the
secretary of defense.
He's now a professor at the
naval academy.
And Kimberly Kagan is the
founder and president of the
institute for the study of war.
A non-profit, non-partisan
research organization.
Thank you to you both for being
here.
Gary, we are several weeks into
Ukraine's counteroffensive.
How would you assess that effort
is going?
Col. Espinas: I think it is
clear there has been a slowdown
in the counteroffensive.
That should not be a surprise to
anybody.
This is a nation at war, and
wars are characterized by
tactical advances and defeats.
You throw in a whole lot of
uncertainty, something that the
Russian military theorists
called the fog of war.
It is not only the Ukrainians
that have been preparing for the
counteroffensive but the
Russians have been preparing for
that as well.
They have had several months to
dig in, they are highly
entrenched.
You have this 900 mile battle
line at the front there.
In some cases, you have
minefields going back 10
commenters or more.
This is what the Ukraine and are
having to contend with.
It is no surprise, certainly to
the Ukrainians or as who have
been watching this, that we are
not probably, given those
circumstances the Ukrainians are
faced with, probably not going
to see in the near term a
decisive penetration or victory.
This will not be a d-day
penetration, in my opinion,
anytime soon.
William: Kimberly, the same
question to you.
How do you characterize how the
counteroffensive is going?
Kimberly: Gary characterized
this very well.
The Ukrainians began their
counteroffensive only five weeks
ago.
They have been making
adjustments in how they execute
their tactics in order to adjust
to the minefields and the
Russian defenses of their
prepared positions.
And the Ukrainians are probing
along the line to find weak
spots in those Russian defenses.
What we are observing is that
the Ukrainians are probing along
the south, and they are also
probing in the east around the
flanks of bakhmut.
In the east where the Russians
don't have dug in prepared
defensive positions behind them,
the Ukrainians are making gains.
William: Gary, help us
understand the strategy that
Kimberly is describing their.
Is the idea that the Ukrainians
keep probing to find a weakness,
and then punch through that and
send troops into that opening?
Is that the plan?
Gary: The Ukrainians are having
to walk a fine line between
minimizing their losses and
exploiting vulnerability to
their advantage.
Of course, there are
limitations, given their current
operation and having to contend
with minefields and dug in
Russian energy troops.
That limits the freedom of
maneuver.
That is the challenge that they
are being faced with now.
William: You both have mentioned
the difficulty the Ukrainians
are having with these
minefields, which we have seen
reporting of, incredibly
concentrated, enormous amounts
of minds across the battlefield.
We heard Millie talk about this
as being a difficult issue for
them.
Do you think the U.S. And the
west ought to be doing more to
speed the mineclearing equipment
to the Ukrainians?
Gary: Just -- Kimberly: Yes, I
do.
The west should be equipping the
Ukrainians to make as many
decisive gains as they can.
And the mineclearing equipment
that the United States is
providing will not materially
affect whether the Ukrainians
can actually move forward, punch
through, and create a very
serious dilemma for the Russians
in that line.
William: Gary, we have talked a
lot during this invasion of some
weapons, some development being
a "Game changer" for the
Ukrainians.
Do you think there is something
the west could realistically
provide to the Ukrainians that
would be that?
Is there something that they
need, that we could get to them,
that would make it a difference?
Gary: I'm very skeptical about
the word game changer.
There's no magic pill that is
going to win the war overnight
for Ukraine.
I think the approach that the
United States and the west have
taken is the right one.
We are day by day assessing how
we can best support the
Ukrainians.
I think that is what we have
been doing.
I think that is the more
sensible approach.
And I think we should also be
clear that, as I said, there is
no magic one key weapon system.
At the end of the day, what
counts are the intangibles.
And when we talk about the
Ukrainians morale and
motivation, that means a lot
more than anything at the end of
the day.
Interact, what we can provide in
terms of security assistance are
those key enablers.
At the end of the day, it is the
Ukrainians who are going to get
themselves across the finish
line, and we are positioned well
to support them.
William: If the Americans were
doing this, or similarly were
well-equipped, they would not be
trying to put trips directly on
the frontline.
They would be doing weeks of
bombing behind the Russian
frontlines before they activated
this way.
Isn't that right?
Kimberly: Yes, it is.
The United States would also
have with it close air support,
and attack helicopters to help
make it easier for our ground
troops to advance.
The United States also has
aerosol troops who can come in
behind the lines and help meet
up with troops that are
advancing.
Ukraine does not have any of
this.
The United States therefore
needs to be patient with the
amount of time that it is taking
for the Ukrainians to make
advances, and recognize that it
is important to compare the
Ukrainians to their capabilities
and to the Russians, not T they
knighted states of America.
William: Gary, given what
Kimberly is saying, are we
asking too much of the
Ukrainians to fight a ground war
in a way differently than we
would?
Gary: No, I don't.
I think the Ukrainians are
certainly in a different
position from the United States.
I completely agree with Kimberly
that the United States has the
combat power that the Ukrainians
don't have.
The advantage the Ukrainians do
have, specifically over the
Russians, is they have been in
the process of military and
defense reform well before this
current war.
It is an effort the united
States, that the great Britain
and Canada, as well as other
European partners have been
involved with since back to
2014.
I think we are seeing, despite
their relative weakness, I guess
you could say, they are able to
make up for that with initiative
and the kind of training that is
being brought to bear that we
are not seeing from the Russian
side that is completely inept,
led by poor leadership, and
poorly trained.
At the end of the day, what the
Ukrainians lack, they will make
up for in their cunning.
William: Gary espinas and
Kimberly Kagan, thank you both
so much.
Kimberly: Thank you.
Gary: Thank you.
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