ENERGY BUSINESS ALLOWED PUTIN TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHO WOULD BE
RICH AND WHO WOULD BE POWERFUL
IN UKRAINE.
IN UKRAINE. JOINING ME NOW IN HER FIRST TV
INTERVIEW, NOT EVER BUT IN THIS
BOOK, IS RACHEL MADDOW.
THE BOOK IS FANTASTIC.
>> THANK YOU.
>> IT’S A GREAT READ.
YOU ARE A -- YOU DON’T NEED TO
HEAR THIS, BUT YOU’RE AN
INCREDIBLE STORY TELLER.
IT REALLY PULLS YOU THROUGH.
MAYBE LET’S START ON THE
RUSSIA/UKRAINE STUFF WHICH I
LEARNED A LOT ABOUT.
THE DEGREE TO WHICH RESOURCE
FIGHTS AND SORT OF QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHO WOULD DOMINATE ENERGY
WERE AT THE KIND OF CORE, THE
LIKE PLATFORM OVER WHICH THE
CONFLICT WAS HAVING BETWEEN
RUSSIA AND UKRAINE?
>> I WILL SAY AT THE OUTSET.
FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU.
I’M SUPER NERVOUS ABOUT IT.
I REALIZE IT’S A HARD SELL, A
TOUGH TOPIC.
TOUGH TOPIC. YOU COVER THE OIL AND GAS
INDUSTRY WAY MORE THAN I DO.
YOU’RE MORE WELL-VERSED IN THIS
STUFF.
STUFF. I ENDED UP HERE BECAUSE I WAS
INTERESTED IN RUSSIA.
I HAD THIS QUESTION TRYING TO
IMAGINE IT FROM PUTIN’S
PERSPECTIVE, RUSSIA’S
PERSPECTIVE, RUSSIA’S PERSPECTIVE, WHY ARE THEY
PULLING ALL OF THIS BACK.
RUSSIA’S A MALIGNANT FEAR
FACTOR, WHY?
FACTOR, WHY? WHAT I CAME UP WITH IS THE FACT
THAT THEY HAVE A REALLY SCREWED
UP ECONOMY AND THAT DOESN’T MAKE
SENSE EITHER BECAUSE THEY’D
FLOAT ON A SEA OF OIL AND GAS.
WHY SHUNNED THEY HAVE A GOOD TO
RUN.
RUN. IT VERY OFTEN CO OPS AT GOOD
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. IN THE HANDS OF AN UNSAVORY
DICTATOR, IT CAN ALSO BE USED TO
DELIBERATELY CREATE CORRUPTION
AND TO TURN THE LIGHTS ON AND
OFF IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
THAT’S HOW PUTIN HAS MANIPULATED
UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. CREATING A RUSSIAN SUPPLY CHAIN
IN ORDER TO FUND POLITICAL
PARTIES THAT HE SUPPORTS AND TO
CREATE MORASES OF CORRUPTION.
>> I WAS IN A CORRUPTION LAB
WITH HIM AND HE TERMED
CORRUPTION AS AN INDEPENDENT
CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. I KEEP THINKING OF THAT PHRASE
IN THIS BOOK.
THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF IMPROPER
DEPENDENTS.
DEPENDENTS. PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE STEWARD’S
OF THE BOUNDY DON’T HAVE A
RESPONSE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN.
THEY SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR
THE PEOPLE AND SAY THEY HAVE AN
INDEPENDENT MODEL ON
EXXONMOBILE.
EXXONMOBILE. WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS INDUSTRY
IN ALMOST EVERY PLACE IT
OPERATES.
OPERATES. >> RESTRAKTTIVE CURVES AND THEY
HAVE RESOURCES THA CAN BE SOLD
INTERNATIONALLY, YOU ARE SUBJECT
TO THE SORT OF PARADOX.
THE REVENUES THAT YOU GET FOR
THAT.
THAT. >> IT’S MONEY.
IT’S MONEY.
IT’S MONEY. IT’S RAINING MONEY.
>> EXCEPT WHAT IT TENDS TO DO IS
CREATE A STREAM OF MONEY THAT IS
GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO COME IN
AND TAKE THAT OUT.
THE GOVERNMENT MINISTERS HAVE NO
PURPOSE ON EARTH OTHER THAN TO
KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER TO CASH
IN ON THAT.
IT MAKES THE GOVERNMENT DRIVEN
IN THAT DIRECTION.
$25 BILLION IN A LITTLE POOR
COUNTRY LIKE EQUITORIAL GUINEA.
POVERTY AND HEALTH CARE AND
EDUCATION GO DOWN AND THE SON OF
THE PRESIDENT BUYS ALL THE
WORLD’S MICHAEL JACKSON
MEMORABILIA.
MEMORABILIA. THEY BUILD THREE NEW CAPITOL
CITIES.
CITIES. HE BECOMES THE LONGEST SITTING
PRESIDENT IN THE WORLD.
THAT’S THE SORT OF INFLUENCE
THAT OIL AND GAS COMPANIES CAN
HAVE IN SMALL COUNTRIES.
THEY CAN ALSO DO THAT IN BIG
CONDITIONS TRIS.
CONDITIONS TRIS. >> CARS WERE SOLD FOR $25,000.
>> THERE’S THE FLEET OF THE ILL
GOTTEN OIL.
GOTTEN OIL. >> AND THERE’S -- THE OTHER PART
OF THIS IS THE FOSSIL FIELD WILL
OPERATE IN THIS RUTHLESSLY
AMORAL SPACE.
AMORAL SPACE. >> YES, THAT’S A PERFECT WAY TO
PUT IT.
PUT IT. >> THEY’LL DEAL WITH -- IF
YOU’RE THE GOVERNOR OF OKLAHOMA,
THEY’LL DEAL WITH YOU.
IF YOU ARE A DESPERATE SON, IF
YOU’RE VLADIMIR PULT CONTINUE,
WE’LL GET IT OUT FOF HERE.
THEY WANT CONTRACT SANCTITY.
WHAT THEY NEED IS STABILITY AND
ASSURANCE AND THEY DON’T HAVE TO
DO TOO MUCH MORE FOR ONE-STOP
SHOPPING.
SHOPPING. IT’S NOT THAT OIL AND GAS
COMPANIES SEEK TO INSTALL
DICTATORS, IF THERE IS ONE
THERE, THAT’S GOING TO BE QUITE
CONVENIENT FOR THEM IN MOST
CASES.
CASES. >> IT’S SIMPLIFYING.
>> IT’S SIMPLIFYING IN TERMS OF
WHO DO YOU BLAME, WHAT ARE THEY
DOING UP FOR YOU?
SO IT’S NOT A COULD INNINGS
DENSE THAT YOU END UP WITH SORT
OF COERCION OF DEMOCRACY WHERE
OIL AND GAS COMPANIES HAVE SWAY.
I THINK WE CAN SEE THAT AT HOME
BUT IN RUSSIA I THINK IT
CONTRIBUTED TO THEM HAVING A
REAL WEAK SPOT IN TERMS OF WHAT
THEY CAN DO TO STAY OUT OF OTHER
COUNTRIES.
COUNTRIES. HE ENDED UP USING OIL AND GAS IN
CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. ESPECIALLY IN THE UKRAINE.
HE ALSO KNOWS THAT UNLESS HE
GETS SOME SANCTIONS LIFTED,
UNLESS HE CAN GET EXXON, SHELL,
BP, ALL THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES
IN TO HELP HIM DRILL, RUSSIA’S
ONE ECONOMIC ASSET IS NOT
SOMETHING HE CAN GET OUT OF THE
GROUND.
GROUND. >> YES.
>> YES. HE’S THE THEATER.
>> WHEN I WAS READING THIS I WAS
THINKING THE TWO SKETCHIEST
RELATIONSHIPS THE PRESIDENT HAS
IS WITH MOHAMED.
>> THEY HAVE DISPOTTIC REGIMES
AND ENGAGING IN LOTS OF SORT OF
MALFEASANCE AND MISCHIEF AND BAD
ACTS AROUND THE WORLD AT THE
TIME.
TIME. I ALSO WONDER HOW MUCH -- YOU
DON’T TALK ABOUT THIS THIS MUCH.
THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO STOP
PULLING STUFF OUT OF THE GROUND.
THEY HAVE BEEN OPERATING IN ALL
KINDS OF PLACES.
THEY’RE CORRUPT IN GOVERNMENT,
HAD ILLICIT DEALS.
THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO MELT THE
ENTIRE WORLD AND THEY’RE GOING
TO HAVE TO LEAVE A HUGE CHUNK OF
IT IN THE GROUND.
WHAT HAPPENS?
WHAT HAPPENS? >> WHERE I ENDED UP WITH THE
BOOK WAS A PLACE I DID NOT
EXPECT TO BE, WHICH IS I’M A
LITTLE BIT HOPEFUL BUT I HAVE TO
PUT A HEADS UP.
I’M HOPEFUL BECAUSE I THINK THE
SOLUTION IS DEMOCRACY.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE,
THE EXAMPLE OF OKLAHOMA AND
OKLAHOMA CITY, THAT’S A VERY
POSITIVE EXAMPLE.
POSITIVE EXAMPLE. >> PEOPLE ARE LIKE, WHAT’S GOING
ON?
ON? >> IT’S NOT THAT OKLAHOMA BECAME
A BLUE STATE OR ENVIRONMENTAL
HAVEN MP AND IN A WAY THAT I
REALLY FEEL LIKE IS A MODEL FOR
THE COUNTRY AND SOME WAYS FOR
THE WORLD.
THE WORLD. OKLAHOMA KIND OF SHOWS THE WAY
TO DO IT.
TO DO IT. SO DEMOCRACY WORKS.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHAT
DEMOCRACY IS GOING TO ACCOMPLISH
SOON IS THE END OF THE OIL AND
GAS INDUSTRY BECAUSE OF CLIMATE
CHANGE.
CHANGE. IT MAY NOT BE A DEEP
CRESCENDO --
CRESCENDO -- >> WE SHOULD BE PREPARED.
THAT’S GOING TO MOVE BORDERS OF
COUNTRIES BECAUSE MORE THAN WE
APPRECIATE, IT IS WESTERN OIL
AND GAS THAT ARE PROPPING UP ALL
SORTS OF HOLES.
WHEN THEIR MARKET SHARE
DISAPPEARS AND THEIR INFLUENCE
GOES AWAY, THE WORLD IS GOING TO
CHANGE.
CHANGE. WE CAN ALL IMAGINE WHAT IT’S
GOING TO DO.
EVERYWHERE THAT OIL IS PRODUCED
BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH AN IMPACT
ON EVERYTHING.
ON EVERYTHING. >> WHEN THEY GO THERE’S SOFT
LAPPING VERSUS HARD LAPPING.
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FOR
MARKETS AND EVERYONE TO REALIZE
THIS?
THIS? >> WE’RE WILEY COYOTE ABOUT
THIS.
THIS. WE’LL STIFF EXTRACTING IT.
EMISSIONS ARE GOING UP.
REALLY GOING UP IN PLACES LIKE
CHINA AND INDIA.
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS LIKE ARE
YOU CONFIDENT THEY WILL HAVE TO
STOP AND HOW QUICKLY --
>> THERE WILL NEVER STOP
THEMSELVES.
THEMSELVES. THE OIL AND GAS --
>> THEY’RE NOT GOING TO
VOLUNTEER.
VOLUNTEER. >> -- ARE MARKETING THEMSELVES
AS TECHNOLOGICAL WIZARDS.
>> 45% OF OUR CARBON EMISSIONS
ARE BURNING OIL.
31% OF NATURAL GAS.
THAT’S NOT A GREAT BRIDGE,
THAT’S ANOTHER FUTURE.
THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY WILL
NOT HAVE TO STOP THEMSELVES.
THE QUESTION OF WHEN IT HAPPENS
IS GOING TO DEPEND ON SCIENCE,
INNOVATION AND DEMOCRATIC POWER.
THE REVELATION FOR ME ABOUT THE
OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY IS HOW BAD
THEY ARE AT THEIR OWN GAME.
HOW MUCH THEY CAN’T DO.
THAT’S THE STUFF THAT’S IN THEIR
WHEEM HOUSE.
WHEEM HOUSE. PUTIN THINKS HE NEEDS WESTERN
OIL COMPANY.
OIL COMPANY. THEY CAN’T THINK THEIR WAY OUT
OF IT.
OF IT. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT WHAT
THEY DO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE
GOING TO GET US OUT OF THIS
MESS.
MESS. >> THEY’RE SUBJECT TO THE BOOK,
TOO.
TOO. IT’S CALLED BLYOUT.