Wow, goose bumps.. I cannot believe it we won
Friends of the Earth won. hearing that again, it brings me
back I feel very emotional it's been an emotional week, many people shed tears like we may have
shed a tear I may have shed like one or two tears part of the majority my throat
actually still hurts from screaming so loudly
so why are we excited Muna - a big week at Friends of the Earth
what's happened? Yes, so you're listening to a bonus episode of how to save the
planet because we friends of the earth won a case against the government who
were trying to expand Heathrow Airport and the Court of Appeal found their case
to be illegal specifically on climate change grounds
which as I say again my nose alright honestly the word is historic because of
communities have been doing this for years you know thought the day would never come
and here we are. So I'm Muna, I'm your favourite climate campaigner
oh yeah joined today by Louisa not a climate campaigner but still very
excited talk very excited and and yet and you're listen to a bonus episode of
how to save the planet so you might have been seeing this flying around who might
have seen on the news so I'm exceptionally excited that we're joined
with Katie took our today one of the amazing lawyers who worked on the
Heathrow case she's here to answer your questions
and tell us the story about this amazing win Katie welcome thank you muna hi
everyone as Katie from your favorite legal defense of the earth yes and maybe
even someone's favorites life I mean a hundred percent my favorite legal team
right now I'm not gonna lie really it's like Katie you must be
feeling pretty good today how are you doing I would say I'm on absolute cloud
nine it's just a fantastic victory and I'm so happy to have been a part of it
such a privilege to work on could you just give us a quick synopsis about how
it came about what what we'll be fighting against and kind of how we got
this win sure so first of all this case has got a really long history friends of
the earth local activists and communities have been fighting heater
expansion for decades actually and we brought these proceedings
actually a year and a half ago so it's been a pretty long road to get to this
amazing victory which was announced yesterday and our case was all about the
need for the government to properly consider climate change when it adopted
this policy and in a nutshell they didn't the government keeps talking
about how we're in a climate emergency but it's not acting like that
so government was found to be acting illegally we're in the planning of
Heathrow and it was purely on like the climate grounds that that decision was
made it sounds big how how big is that really as a win it's absolutely enormous
this case basically is the most important most and has the most profound
implications for environmental law for environmental protection in over a
generation it's really you know meteoric good I'm getting it like honestly as
Katie speaks I'm getting like like almost like emotional again because this
is as campaigners you're so used to hearing no especially when it's from the
government or even coming from any kind of decision makers and to hear yes from
the judges for once it just felt like the crack in the armor and that we were
actually making cut through so it's just yes I'm I'm riding the wave as well I'm
stood on the high yeah having like the privilege of being down at SCI court
yesterday like the moment of that being announced I do
I might have shed a tear it was it was very goose-bumpy and like emotional down
there at school yeah I can tell you when the lawyers walked out of the court oh
it was a scene from a Hollywood movie okay so you mentioned implications what
are some of the implications of this well because this is such a epic win for
climate justice the implications really are huge and they first and foremost I
think we should you know just take a moment to think that because of our case
and Plan B's cases we were the two claimants that actually succeeded we
have stopped Heathrow expansion in its tracks and Heathrow is already one of
the single largest sources of emissions in the whole of the UK so this in our
view was speaking for friends of the earth was absolute madness that the
government was wanting to expand so that there would be an estimate of 700 extra
flights per day in the sky with this expanded Heathrow so and given how much
support whatever the government may be saying now given how much support they
pushed towards he's so expansion is the government who adopted the airport
national policy statement giving the green light to expansion so they may be
saying now this is an industry-led thing but they're the ones who adopted the
policy the developers do not have the power to adopt a government policy for
expansion so the government was invested in this and that's why they spent so
much money defending it as well and so does that mean the these sort of cases
are going to be kind of easier to bring again it's government like forcing them
to to actually stick to their climate commitments and promises they made is
that going to become a bit of an easier task in the future definitely because
this is a ruling from the Court of Appeal which is one of the higher courts
the second highest court in this country so there's then a sort of precedent
basis to this so the lower courts are going to be bound by that decision and
and therefore yes it does have implications for other you know big
infrastructure projects which also have climate impacts
and also on a more do you know local level even with things like plan making
for Town and Country Planning decisions of a sort of yes smaller level we think
there could be implications for those too it really just centers climate
change and the importance of climate change into government decision-making
which is obviously what they should have been doing all along but now the court
is telling them that's what they need to do sounds like music to my ears and
already we've seen reports of how you know this could influence even with big
road road building projects and this is this is a brilliant precedent that we've
said so Katy since the massive ruling yesterday there's been loads of kind of
chat flying around from journalists from our supporters and would love to get
your take on them the first one that I've heard a lot about is you know since
the announcement Heathrow has said that they will be appealing what does that
actually mean and I do do you think they're likely to we're not overturn
this well yes Heathrow has announced that they are
appealing what they're actually doing is seeking permission to appeal from the
Supreme Court there's no guarantee they will even get that so it's not the
appeal is not in the bag in the sense of even having a hearing as yet and the
Court of Appeal yesterday refused their application for permission to appeal
which is why they've now got to get their application in to the Supreme
Court itself in terms of where that leaves us well I think their position is
pretty undermined to be honest by the fact that the government has said that
they are not appealing because without the government support it's just
basically a bit like they're you know up the creek without a paddle
so I don't think they're there they're not on solid ground on this I think
they're in a pretty shaky position that is fantastic to hear
of course I said one of the other things I've seen as well it's like around the
Paris agreement and obviously it being pretty big precedent-setting
the we are you know the the government not considering their commitments in the
Paris agreement properly is actually illegal what do you see the impacts of
that having both kind of within the UK but then also what does that mean for
other people who are signed up to the Paris agreement and like how their
governments might need to start considering their behavior so within the
UK I think this case is a massive inspiration for anyone trying to fight a
development which has climate change in implications or very negative climate
change impacts and really that's because you know all the cases that we could
have taken Heathrow was a difficult one to win there was a huge amount of
investment in it it's a massive project we keep being told this line that it's
essential for the UK coming out of the EU that you know the economy is somehow
going to almost collapse without he's very expanding so this was not an easy
case to win and if we can win on climate grounds facing you know a mega
development like that then I think it really opens it up in other areas as
well so you know you mentioned roads major roads obviously they will have
climate implications and I think that this will mean that Paris for example
needs to be taken into account there and you know other projects like the Drax
gas power plant again we think clear implications there and that this is a
boost for that case which is being taken by another environmental NGO client
earth would you add haters to to that list as well
so hs2 is covered by a different regime to the airport national policy statement
hs2 is governed by a its own bill so the witho isn't as clear but in the general
and I think there are there are few decisions which which have climate
impacts which won't be implicated in some way but I think H HS 2 is a less
clear example than something that's actually covered by an MP s as well and
just kind of take a step back actually on the Paris agreement for a minute I
think a lot of people may have heard the Paris agreement being talked about and
maybe vaguely aware that it's a thing but what actually is the power scream so
the Paris agreement is a international treaty and it commits them to pursuing
efforts to limit global warming temperatures to 1.5 degrees and to keep
them well below 2 degrees and the UK is a signatory and we ratified it as well
so this case makes clear that under two separate sections of the Planning Act
that the government needed to take into account the Paris agreement and they
couldn't just look at the domestic carbon targets in place under the
climate change act which is obviously very important as well they needed to
look beyond that because of the scope of the duties in the Planning Act
so the Paris agreement in as it like whilst it's an international agreement
it requires kind of the courts of a country to actually push that to be
legally enforced the court have enforced that Paris was obviously relevant to
this decision but that's not something that the court should have had to have
done the government should have got it right in the first place they keep
talking about how Paris is you know their policy they keep talking about how
they are serious about tackling the climate emergency the Planning Act did
not say only look at targets in place under the climate change act it referred
to the desirability of mitigating climate change and the court ruled that
Paris was therefore amongst other factors obviously Ralph
and on the list as well is the idea of you know we've seen not just with kind
of this case but you know cases last year where the courts have moved to
almost check the government do you think in you know in some way the government
will now try to strip their courts of that power or at least undermine them
because they are doing a good job of holding them to account I think that's a
risk we need to be very alive - yes as you may know the government has already
announced that they're setting up a committee to examine that the basis for
judicial review which is the legal mechanism by which we friends of the
earth challenged the government's decision to expand Heathrow and they're
doing that they say because there are are meritorious claims coming before the
courts and so you know people wasting the Court's time and that judges are
basically pursuing a kind of political activism and in getting involved in
things which are no concern of theirs and that this is somehow an
anti-democratic but what this case is very clear about and what the judgment
is very clear about is that they have not done that in this instance at all
they have said that the policy to expand Heathrow is unlawful because of the
legal errors which they have identified because the government didn't comply
with its legal duties they have not actually said in their ruling that
Heathrow that they have not commented on whether Heathrow expansion is a good or
bad thing obviously friends of the earth we believe that it's a terrible thing
but the courts haven't said that they've just said you haven't acted lawfully
government that's why this is unlawful fantastic if it was like for the first
time because I think governments are so often like yeah we'll commit to this and
especially the UK claims to be a world leader on the environment and for the
first time we're trying to push what government says
it commits to in line with its actions and that for me feels like special on
the world leader side is are there international impacts for this decision
like is this a is this a decision that's gonna kind of echo throughout the world
type of a thing we think so yes I mean I mean as a starter Friends of
the earth is the largest environmental grassroots network in the world and our
sister organizations all around the world all around the world were
delighted with the announcement when it came out yesterday and that's because
this is a global struggle that we're in fighting climate justice but it's also
because people recognize that the this country's legal seam is very well
respected around the world and it and cases here are quoted in jurisdictions
all over the place and also in a way the fact that the that this country doesn't
have what's called a written constitution means that in a way these
implications are even greater because if we can do that without those sort of
specific protections in place that you find in other constitutions so for
example and the agenda case the Dutch case which was another great climate
victory then that really opens it up for other people who do have written
constitutions that specifically have these rights expressed there I'm only
only other questions that's getting asked a lot is is does this mean the
government will just try and leave the Paris agreement is that something that
they can do well there's something that you can theoretically do and then
there's another thing called political suicide the government has always
maintained that it is committed to the Paris agreement so it would be I don't
think we need to be worried about withdrawing from the Paris agreement I
mean the US has indicated that they want to begin the withdrawal process but that
has resulted in pretty much universal calm
nation from countries all over the world at a time when we're coming out of the
European Union we've lost the European Union we're in a transition period you
know the UK just doesn't need that kind of pressure and I think it would be
politically madness and I think the government knows that okay so yeah so
Mona you're on cloud nine Katy's on cloud nine yes we're
celebrating yeah okay how are you gonna be celebrating this it's massive well
I've done a lot of jumping up and down and yeah yelling with joy so I'm gonna
keep doing that to hopefully not startle too many people on the street as I do
that and yeah I'm gonna have a really nice glass of Prosecco or maybe more
yeah and there for those of you interested in seeing Katie's joy there's
a lot of photos on our social media at the moment and the size of the grin on
her face is she comes out of court is it's Oh Cheshire Cat it's it's it's a
it's a joy to behold so yeah I'd recommend having a look through some of
the images from yesterday well thank you so much for joining us Katie it's been
it's been so useful to have your insight here and I hope explanation of your kind
of key questions have been useful to listen to I for one I'm still in I'm
still on cloud nine with you I just think it's it's so amazing and I
want to end with thanking the communities who have been on the
frontline against he thrown in many forms for a long time and I know this
win is a personal win for them it's a personal win for us in the fight against
the climate crisis and just yeah just a pleasure okay that's a happy goodbye
from us and we'll see you soon bye everyone bye
what do we