>>> HOW STRONG DO YOU FEEL --
LET --
>> ARE YOU GOING TO PACK THE
COURT?
>> VOTE NOW.
MAKE SURE YOU IN FACT.
>> HE DOESNT WANT TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION.
>> IM NOT GOING TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION.
>> WHY WOULDNT YOU ANSWER THE
QUESTION?
>> THE QUESTION IS --
>> THE RADICAL LEFT --
>> WILL YOU SHUT UP, MAN?
>> THAT EXCHANGE WAS FROM THE
FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
BETWEEN JOE BIDEN AND DONALD
TRUMP.
IT WAS STUNNING AT THE TIME,
STUNNING STILL.
IT WAS A DISASTER OF A NIGHT FOR
THE EX-PRESIDENT IN WHICH DONALD
TRUMP CONTINUALLY INTERRUPTED
THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, JOE
BIDEN, AND EVEN THE MODERATOR,
CHRIS WALLACE, THE DEBATE HALL
AND THOSE WATCHING AT HOME WERE
STUNNED INTO SILENCE BY WHAT
THEY WITNESSED.
THE "WALL STREET JOURNALS"
MICHAEL BENDER PUTS IT THIS WAY.
TRUMPS STYLE HAD CHANGED FROM
FOUR YEARS EARLIER, BUT SO HAD
HE.
THIS TIME, TRUMP HAD SOMETHING
TO LOSE AND IT RATTLED HIM.
NO ONE WANTS TO VOTE FOR
SOMEBODY ACTING LIKE AN ANGRY --
ONE OF HIS CLOSEST ADVISERS SAID
AFTERWARD.
ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE
SELF-INFLICTED WOUNDS OF ALL
TIME, ANOTHER SAID.
HE -- THE BED.
EVERYONE SEEMED TO UNDERSTAND
HOW MUCH DAMAGE TRUMP HAD JUST
DONE TO HIMSELF, BUT NO ONE
WANTED TO TELL THE ONE MAN WHO
NEEDED TO HEAR IT.
MICHAEL BENDERS NEW BOOK TITLED
"FRANKLY, WE DID WIN THIS
ELECTION," THE INSIDE STORY OF
HOW TRUMP LOST, IS OUT TODAY.
MICHAEL BENDER JOINS US NOW.
MICHAEL BENDER, YOU KNOW THAT WE
HAVE COVERED EVERYTHING THAT HAS
COME OUT FROM YOUR BOOK AND IT
IS SO NICE TO HAVE HAD A CHANCE
TO READ THE WHOLE THING.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT,
BUT I WANT TO START WITH A
BIGGER QUESTION, SOMETHING I
ASKED ALMOST EVERY WEEK DURING
THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, WHETHER IT
WAS AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE OR --
HOLE COUNTRIES OR AFTER THAT
DEBATE.
WHY DIDNT ANYBODY FEEL DISHONOR
WORKING FOR HIM?
WHY DIDNT ANYBODY QUIT?
>> HMM, THATS A REALLY GOOD
QUESTION, AND SOMETHING THAT,
YOU KNOW, THE FOLKS AROUND
DONALD TRUMP WILL HAVE TO
ANSWER.
AND I THINK WHAT I FOUND
REPORTING THIS BOOK IS THAT THEY
ALL HAVE A LITTLE DIFFERENT
ANSWERS, AND THAT -- THAT
TRUMPS PRIORITY FROM DAY ONE AT
THE WHITE HOUSE WAS ALWAYS TO
WIN REELECTION.
EVERYTHING WAS SECONDARY TO
THAT.
I DONT -- I HAD A HARD TIME
FINDING ANYONE ELSE AROUND HIM
WHO WOULD PUT THAT AS THEIR TOP
PRIORITY.
HE HAD PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO PASS
TAX BILLS, PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO
GET IMMIGRATION REFORM DONE,
PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO RUN, YOU
KNOW, FORM TELKCH COMMITTEES AND
MEET THE TITANS OF BUSINESS.
NO ONE THOUGH HAD WANTED TO WIN
AS BADLY AS DONALD TRUMP DID,
AND THATS WHAT YOU SAW IN THAT
DEBATE AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS
MISSING THERE FROM 2016 -- AND
THATS WHAT I WRITE, THAT HE HAD
SOMETHING TO LOSE NOW.
IN 2016 HE WAS AS CONFRONTATION
AND AS AGGRESSIVE, BUT, YOU
KNOW, AND AS CHAOTIC, BUT WHAT
HAPPENED IN 2020, HE SAW THE
RACE COMING OUT FROM UNDERNEATH
HIS FEET AND ANOTHER SORT OF
THREW LINE
THROUGH LINE OF THIS BOOK IS
THAT SENIOR AIDE AFTER SENIOR
AIDE TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE --
THEY WERE STRUCK BY HOW MUCH OF
A DANGER HE WAS TO THE COUNTRY
AND THERE WERE VERY FEW PEOPLE
WHO WOULD ACTUALLY TELL HIM NO,
TELL HIM THE TRUTH DIRECTLY AND
CONCISELY.
>> AND I WANT TO SORT OF -- I
MEAN THE BOOK HAS SO MUCH.
FOR THE PURPOSES OF OUR
CONVERSATION TODAY, AND I HOPE
YOU WILL COME BACK, I WANT TO
CHUNK THAT UP INTO THE DANGER HE
PRESENTED TO THE RULE OF LAW AND
YOUR REPORTING ON THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT, THE DANGER HE SORT
OF PRESENTED TO THE MILITARY AND
YOUR REPORTING ON MILLEY AND
THEN I WANT TO TALK ABOUT COVID,
BECAUSE YOUR REPORTING IN ALL
THREE AREAS IS REALLY AMONG THE
MOST STUNNING OF THE TRUMP ERA.
LET ME START WITH THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT.
YOU WRITE THIS, DESPITE WARNING
FROM CIPOLLONE, WHITE HOUSE
COUNCIL AND THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT, TRUMP REPEATEDLY
TRIED TO REACH OUT TO U.S.
ATTORNEYS IN STATES WHERE HE
WANTED VOTER FRAUD INVESTIGATED.
PANIC RIPPLED THROUGH THE
GEORGIA REPUBLICAN PARTY
INCLUDING AMONG MANY TOP
OFFICIALS TRUMP TRUSTED.
GEORGIA SENATOR DAVID PURDUE
MIGHT HAVE HAD THE CLOSEST
RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP OF ANY
REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF THE SENATE.
DAVIDS COUSIN HAD BEEN HIS AG
SECRETARY IN THE CABINET ALL
FOUR YEARS.
NONE OF THEM COULD TALK SENSE
INTO TRUMP SO THEY STARTED TO
CALL JARED.
ONCE DONALD PUT RUDY IN CHARGE,
IT GUARANTEED THIS WAS GOING TO
BE A CLOWN SHOW, JARED SAID, I
CANT HELP YOU.
SO ALL OF THEM KNEW THAT HE WAS
CORRUPTING THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT BY SEEKING THESE
INVESTIGATIONS.
WE ALL HEARD THE CALL WITH
RAFFENSPERGER AND MEADOWS IS ON
THE PHONE.
DID ANY OF THEM WORRY THAT THEY
WERE RUNNING AFOUL OF THE LAW?
>> YOU KNOW, I KNOW SOME OF
THOSE GEORGIA REPUBLICANS WERE
STRUCK BY JAREDS JUST, YOU
KNOW, WILLINGNESS TO CHECK OUT
AT THAT POINT.
STAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT JARED,
HE WAS -- HE HAD SOME SUCCESS
PROTECTING HIS FATHER-IN-LAW
FROM DISTRACTION.
I KNOW THAT SOUNDS WILD, BUT HE
WAS ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO
COULD DO IT WITH SOME DEGREE OF
SUCCESS.
BUT HE SAW THE WRITING ON THE
WALL THOSE LAST COUPLE OF
MONTHS, AND, YOU KNOW, HE TOLD
OTHERS AROUND HIM IN THE WHITE
HOUSE THAT THATS HIS
FATHER-IN-LAW AT THE END OF THE
DAY AND, YOU KNOW, CAN YOU
IMAGINE EVERY BIRTHDAY PARTY,
EVERY ONE OF YOUR SON AND
DAUGHTERS BIRTHDAY PARTY FOR
THE REST OF YOUR LIFE HEARING
YOUR FATHER-IN-LAW SAY, WELL, I
WOULD BE PRESIDENT AGAIN IF ONLY
JARED WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, NOT
STOPPED US FROM FIGHTING.
SO HE WASHED HIS HANDS.
AND ONE AFTER THE OTHER OF
PEOPLE AS SENIOR AS JARED
KUSHNER, IM TALKING ABOUT MIKE
PENCE, RONNA McDANIEL, TO
A-DEGREE MARK MILLEY, THOUGHT
STRUM WAS GOING TO FIND HIS WAY
OUT OF THIS.
THEY WANTED TO GIVE HIM SOME
SPACE TO LET OFF STEAM AND
ACKNOWLEDGE THE RESULTS OF THE
ELECTION, BUT WHAT HAPPENED IS
THAT CREATED AN OPENING FOR RUDY
GIULIANI AND THOSE FOLKS TO COME
IN AND TELL TRUMP EXACTLY WHAT
HE WANTED TO HEAR.
>> DID ANY OF THEM WORRY THAT
THE INSURRECTION WOULD BE THE
NATURAL EXTENSION OF TRUMPS
REFUSAL TO CONCEDE?
DID ANY OF THEM SAY AFTER THE
FACT THAT THAT WAS A CONCERN?
>> NO.
I MEAN IN HINDSIGHT IT IS -- IT
IS SOMEWHAT OBVIOUS AND A
NATURAL OUTGROWTH FROM WHAT
TRUMP HAD BEEN TELLING US, NOT
JUST FOR TWO MONTHS BUT FOR FIVE
YEARS, RIGHT.
I MEAN ANY ELECTORAL DEFEAT, HE
WAS NEVER GOING TO TAKE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR.
IT WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE
SOMEONE ELSES FAULT AND BASED
ON FRAUD.
THE ONLY WAY HE COULD LOSE IS TO
HAVE IT STOLEN FROM HIM.
IT REALLY WAS A FAILURE OF
IMAGINATION IN TRUMP WORLD THOSE
LAST FEW WEEKS, THOSE LAST
COUPLE OF MONTHS TO REALIZE THE
DIRECTION THAT TRUMP HIMSELF HAD
BEEN TELLING US ALL THAT THIS
WAS HEADED, YOU KNOW, FOR FOUR
YEARS.
>> I WANT TO TURN --
>> THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT PUSHED
BACK AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.
>> NO, GO AHEAD.
GIVE THEM THEIR DUE.
>> WELL, FOLKS LIKE MARK MILLEY,
RIGHT.
NOT A LOT HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT
MARK MILLEY SO FAR UNTIL THIS
BOOK ABOUT THE ROLE HE PLAYED
BEHIND THE SCENES, WHICH IS,
AGAIN, JUST STUNNING THAT IT
TAKES THE -- YOU KNOW, THE TOP
GENERAL IN THE WORLDS MOST
POWERFUL MILITARY TO ACT AS A
GUARDRAIL HERE FOR TRUMP, AND HE
WAS THE ONE WHO WAS STOPPING
SOME -- WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN
SOME TRULY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS
FROM UNFOLDING.
AND, YOU KNOW, HE -- SORRY.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MOST
STRIKING SCENES FOR THE BOOK FOR
ME IS TRUMP TRYING TO PUT TROOPS
INTO U.S. CITIES AND MILLEY
HAVING TO POINT TO THE PORTRAIT
OF LINCOLN AND SAY, HE HAD AN
INSURRECTION, MR. PRESIDENT.
WHAT WE HAVE IS A CIVIL RIGHTS
PROTEST.
>> LET ME READ IT BECAUSE IT
DOES MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT
THE ROLE THAT MILLEY PLAYED
BEHIND THE SCENES.
SO LET ME READ THAT EXCERPT.
THIS IS FROM PAGE 157.
VICE PRESIDENT PENCE SUGGESTED
INVOKING THE INSURRECTION ACT,
AN OBSCURE FEDERAL LAW THAT
ENABLED THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF
TO DEPLOY ACTIVE DUTY TROOPS
WITHIN U.S. BORDERS.
MILLEY, THE NATIONS HIGHEST
RANKING MILITARY OFFICER, WAS
HORRIFIED BY PENCES SUGGESTION.
THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS
OF STAFF UNDERSTOOD PRECISELY
WHAT THE DIFFERENCE WAS IN
SENDING ACTIVE DUTY TROOPS TO
THE PROTESTS.
ONE WAS TRAINED TO TAKE LAND AND
KILL THE ENEMY AND THE OTHER HAD
BEEN TAUGHT RIOT CONTROL AND
QUASI CONTROL.
LET ME SEE WHAT I CAN DO WITH
THE NATIONAL GUARD BEFORE WE
MAKE THAT NEXT JUMP MILLIE TOLD
TRUMP.
THESE CITIES ARE BURNING.
THE COMMUNITY INFULLIATED
MILLEY.
THE FOUR STAR ARMY GENERAL SPUN
AROUND AND SAID TO SHUT UP.
HE SPOTTED LINCOLNS PORTRAIT
HANGING TO THE RIGHT OF TRUMP
AND POINTED AT IT.
THAT GUY HAD AN INSURRECTION.
WHAT WE HAVE IS A PROTEST.
TRUMP STARTED TO RECONSIDER.
DID MILLEY SEE TRUMP AS A THREAT
TO DEMOCRACY?
>> YEAH, I THINK HE DID.
I MEAN HE WAS ON -- THEY WERE
ON -- YOU KNOW, HE KNOWS THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NATIONAL
GUARD, WHICH IS TRAINED AS A
QUASI LAW ENFORCEMENT UNIT TO
TAKE CARE OF THINGS LIKE
PROTESTS, WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN
CITIES ACROSS AMERICA, AND
ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY WHO ARE
TRAINED TO KILL AND TAKE LAND,
RIGHT.
TWO VERY CLEAR DIFFERENCES.
SO HE -- HE TRIED TO EXPLAIN AND
PULL TRUMP THROUGH THAT
REPEATEDLY, RIGHT.
AND TRUMP ACTUALLY DID RESPECT
MILLEY QUITE A BIT.
AS YOU KNOW, IT IS A
NONPOLITICAL JOB.
HE WAS MADE -- MARK MILLEY WAS
MADE A CHAIRMAN OF THE ARMY
UNDER BARACK OBAMA.
TRUMP HIMSELF MADE HIM CHAIRMAN
OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.
HE WAS TRYING TO PREVENT A
DANGEROUS SITUATION.
WHERE TRUMP SAW IT AS POLITICAL
AND VERY PERSONAL.
AND HOW DOES HE GET -- AND THERE
WERE OTHERS, TOO.
MARK ESPER WOULD PUSH BACK QUITE
A BIT, BUT MILLEY HAD TRUMPS
ATTENTION IN THESE MOMENTS.
HE WAS A GENERAL, A HIGHLY
DECORATED GENERAL, AND HAD A WAY
OF SPEAKING WITH TRUMP -- YOU
KNOW, HE IS IVY LEAGUE, VERY
INTERESTING CHARACTER.
HES IVY LEAGUE EDUCATED, BUT
ALSO KIND OF A BOSTON SPORTS GUY
WHO COULD, YOU KNOW, MIX IT UP A
LITTLE BIT WITH TRUMP.
AND MILLEYS THANKS IS TO GET --
TO GET BASICALLY TRICKED INTO
PARTICIPATING IN ONE OF THE MOST
CONTROVERSIAL POLITICAL MOMENTS
IN, YOU KNOW, AMERICAN HISTORY.
IT CERTAINLY WILL BE REMEMBERED