It's great to welcome to the program today, Oliver Thorne, who's a professional actor
and also the [inaudible]
creator of philosophy too, but youtube channel with about half a million subscribers teaching
philosophy in fun. Interesting. And I would say a well-produced ways. Is that, is that
fair to say?
Oh, thank you. That's very kind of you. It's a pleasure to be here.
So I mean, look for people not familiar with you. To talk a little bit about the, the philosophy
piece of it. I mean, how long have you been studying philosophy and sort of like what's
your relationship generally to philosophy?
I was my first degree and I started the show in my second year of university. I just wanted
to give away my degree for free online. That was six years ago, and since then it's become
a phenomenon. I guess
one of the things I like about what you do is that there's a movement, at least in the
United States where the right, uh, we'll often successfully convert people to their side
by talking exclusively about principals. And I've Long said that it's great to understand
what our principles are and to be introspective and so on and so forth, but that a lot of
the dirty work or the work happens in actually figuring out how to apply those principles
to real world problems and very quickly realizing that oftentimes those principles conflict.
One thing I think you do well and I'm curious to hear whether this is deliberate or one
of the primary things you're trying to do is integrate the discussions of principles
from the get go into how they relate to real world problems and not have this separation
of all that matters is the principles which, which sometimes happens with philosophical
discussions.
Yeah, definitely. I always try to make the philosophy relevant to everyday life. I mean
that's, that's half the fun and, and that's half of what I try and do is say, no, this
isn't just some sort of ivory tower academic like a h Stroger thing. Like philosophy isn't
relevant to people's lives. I think if, if that's the way you're doing philosophy, then
I think you're doing it wrong. The whole point is that it's, it's sometimes life and death
and it's vitally interesting and is so interesting and important if you give it a chance. So
yes, I absolutely try and do that deliberately
trying to reorient people's values or perspectives. Is that or how would you, how would you describe
like the goals of what you are doing? Is it education? Does, do you consider that it goes
beyond that into advocacy?
I think it's definitely educational. I also try and take a bit of a new approach to education.
I find that certainly they're not exclusively on the right. Often when people talk about
philosophy and principles and education, it's very competitive. It's like you need this
so you can win or you need this to to be like aggressive. The analogy that I use is, I imagine
if people only went to the gym because they were training to be street fighters, it's
like this is kind of a weird way of doing it. Whereas what I try and do is create an
environment where it's not competitive. It's not about like opponing the libs or like winning
the debate. It's about curiosity, not ambition is the mantra that I, that I try and use.
So yes, it's educational, but also I've got to kind of matter educational attitude towards
it, which I try and bring across in my work as well.
Have you heard anecdotally about people whose worldview or at least their views on particular
issues have been drastically altered by consuming your content?
Yeah, big time. I get emails almost every day from people who say that, which is amazing.
And what's the gist of it in the sense of, I mean I guess I have, I have many questions
about this. Feel free to pick any of these that you want to address first. I mean, are
you seeing what is the ideological change that seems to most commonly be taking place?
What is it specifically that people say it was that changed their minds?
I got a lot of emails from people who say that they used to be old. Right. And then
I found my work and they move across. I got a lot of emails from people saying, um, that
they, they are still like don't quite agree with everything I say, but they're starting
to move across after my video on abortion. Actually I got a lot of people who are pro-life
who said that I changed their mind, which was interesting. And I actually got a lot
of emails in particular from men who are looking for a new way of being masculine or approach
to being intellectual that isn't necessarily competitive, who said that they really value
that kind of environment that I create. So it's, it's quite diverse, but yeah. Yeah.
But it's quite diverse, but I do get a lot of them. Yeah. I took it a lot of people writing
to me saying that they've sort of changed their outlook on things and sometimes in subtle
ways and sometimes very drastic ways, which is, it's always lovely.
Can you talk a little bit about that, the what you hear from men? So I think you said
that was interesting that people get from you, they get a different way of being. Was
it a different way of being masculine and, and it can just remind me again how you said
that that was interesting.
Yeah, I do get a lot of emails from, from guys and people of all genders, but especially
guys who say that they're kind of looking for a way to be masculine that isn't necessarily
competitive or aggressive. Um, and that they find that the environment I create sort of
helps them do that. A way to be intellectual. Again, that isn't about like winning the debate
or like training for the fight, but he's just about sort of exploring it for their own sake
and having a curious attitude.
One of the things I've expressed kind of concern about is, okay, so at the 30,000 foot level
we, or 10,000 meter level, for lack of a better term, um, we have talked about these, um,
algorithms that we'll often create self-perpetuating feedback loops where people are sort of pushed
further and further into more and more extreme content. I, I believe it happens more on the
right, but it could conceivably happen on both sides of the political spectrum and we
could kind of have that conversation. And then I will also hear from people much like
you who say that my content was at some point in their deprogramming phase, something that
the algorithm suggested and got them out of whatever ideology they had initially been
pulled into. And one of the things I've said is on an, on a, on an objective level, I think
that this is good in that I think the outright is a bad set of ideas.
And if someone gets pulled out of that and they come over to my side, that's good. At
the same time, I have the concern that there is a level of malleability to people's values
in politics whereby by clicking around on youtube they can get so pulled to one side
and then by mere chance, algorithmic chance, they get dragged all the way back to the other
side. Even if I agree with the outcome, I'm still concerned that there is that level of
malleability. Do you share that concern and what, what's your sort of thought about that?
I don't. I, I, I see where you're coming from. I understand the worry and especially that
it seems to be governed by kind of big technological, unseen forces like the Algorithm, but at the
same time I think that's absolutely wonderful that people can learn and change their minds
and that people remain curious and that all it takes is like a little knock on the door
you hadn't realized was there and you can open it and be like, oh my God, I was wrong
the whole time. And that's one of the feelings I love is when you go, oh my gosh, I was completely
wrong about this. And then I have an opportunity to learn something wonderful and new and something
I'd never considered about females. I love the most I got from people that when people
say, I never thought about it that way, or I never thought about it at all. And that's,
that's wonderful because then like a whole whole new wing opens up in your mind. And
so yeah, I understand that. But I guess beautiful.
Um, I, I, I, that that is, uh, certainly a very charitable way to describe it and I think
in a lot of cases that, that it does apply in, it simply is that way and there isn't
more to it. I guess what I'm thinking of is if I think of myself now and 10 years ago
and when I was in high school or whatever, I want to believe that I was never in a place
where, by clicking around on Youtube, if I had seen Ben Shapiro and then Stefan Molyneux
and then whatever that I would've said, oh, you know what? I never thought about this
this way. I'm now an extreme outright nationalist, whatever. Right? Like if that had been possible,
I think it would have said something not particularly positive about me, that I was so ungrounded
in my beliefs that they could have so drastically been changed. I guess that's my concern.
Well mean I almost went down that path myself. Two years ago. I went through a phase of m
I went like a Hitchens, Dawkins atheist phase that was gradually getting more and more radically
right-wing. Yeah. But also, I mean, 10 years ago I was, I was, what, 16 so I mean, who,
who really is that firmly grounded in their beliefs that at 16 or did at any age that
they can't be persuaded? I mean, I understand the desire to the thing. Oh God, you know,
I'm not, I don't like the idea that I could have gone down that road, but at the same
time there's something quite, I think maybe that speaks to that competitive mindset that
actually that, oh, I don't want to think of myself that I could ever be persuaded by that.
But I mean, it could happen to all of us.
Yeah. No, I mean, I guess it's a matter of degree, right? There's no question and I want
to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we should all be completely, uh, insulated from the
idea of re-examining our beliefs or considering some of our conclusions may have been off.
But you know, I guess I'm, I'm reminded of, uh, there's this, uh, cultural critic and
arbiter of ideas named Dave Rubin, who you may be familiar with who nearly at nearly
40 years old had almost 180 degree sort of political realignment or awakening. And while
he insists a lot of his positions haven't changed. Like for example, he's for gay marriage.
Um, it, it, it, there's something about that that if we believe it to be genuine and not
everybody does at that age to exist in a way that you could so radically be quote, awakened
something about it. I find concerning even without disagreeing with you, that being open
to new ideas and re-examining beliefs is of course something we should, we should encourage.
I mean, I agree on, I also, I, I see where you're coming from in Senate. It's concerning.
I think it's both concerning on and kind of beautiful at the same time.
Can you talk a little bit, not to go completely off in that rabbit hole, um, can you talk
a little bit about, is there a political philosophy that is implicit in most of the sort of status
quo political conversations that are happening today about neoliberalism and social democracy?
Or you know, if we look at like the most prevalent political debates today, is there a philosophical
underpinning that you believe exists there, but which most people have not actually studied
in detail, which would be particularly useful to understand the political debates that we're
having?
I think certainly a lot of the discussions I have with people that revolve around political
philosophy, people tend to come at it from a liberal capital l liberal point of view.
And I understand that in the u s people sometimes use the word liberal differently. So in the
UK we, um, I would say that both the major political bodies in your country, our capital,
our liberals, even though one of them is, is more conservative. So I think often people
come at it from that, from that perspective. And it's sometimes, you know, I was raised,
uh, raised with that perspective, so it's kind of sometimes difficult to get out from
under it. Um, I find it very interesting and very rewarding and kind of fun to make people
aware of that perspective. Um, I did a series a while ago, uh, it was quite a few years
ago now called what was liberalism, which, which a lot of people have written to me saying
hi. You know, I, I never thought about it like that. Um, which is quite interesting.
Almost like trying to step outside of it and look in. So I guess people learning a little
bit about like what liberalism is and where it comes from and how it's not sort of built
into the fabric of the universe, but in fact you can get curious about it and change if
you want to. Um, I, I find that to be a particularly rewarding aspects of what I do. Sometimes
I think it's a, is a specific alternative to that type of status quo liberalism using,
you know, the, the word in the sense that you're talking about that is most interesting
to point people to if they're looking to explore alternatives.
I try not to point people towards a specific tendency or anything. Um, but like one alternative
to liberalism would be fascism and another would, would I guess be a leftism. So I would
say that I'm a leftist and I deliberately in public don't get any more specific than
that. Um, but certainly I find that a lot of people, a lot of people reflexively defend
capitalism without really having necessarily thought about it or everything that comes
along with it. And sometimes it's, it's fun to kind of pull on that thread and think,
okay, where did you get this idea from? And, and I, I described it as like dislodging an
idea inside your head and saying, where did I get this and how does it work and do I want
to keep it or not? And sometimes people go, yes, actually I do know that. I understand
that. I do want to hang onto this and that's fine. And sometimes people go, actually you
know what, this is kind of weird. And what else have you got?
There's a couple things that you do that I'm curious about, whether you do them for a particular
strategic reason or they are merely the way you like to do things or whatever the case
may be. One is that your videos are produced in a way that includes, I'm, I'm thinking
that they include scripts and sort of some pretty specific thought as to what is said
and when sometimes costumes and imagery and things that sort of go around the edges of
the ideas. Is that something you do merely because you enjoy it? Is there some strategy
behind it? I mean, speculating the idea that maybe it helps appeal to people that might
be, I don't know, center right. Gamers that might get pulled in by the algorithm or whatever
the case may be. I mean, how much of that is merely what you like to do versus a strategic
decision?
It's both. So, but perhaps for your viewers, you haven't seen any of my videos. I should
say I will sometimes include, I use a lot of visual metaphor. Um, I use a lot of costumes
and characters and narrative devices in my video about abortion, which we mentioned earlier.
It was spliced in with a short film that, that I made. Um, and I do all of that again,
both I partly because I love it because as in my other life, I'm a professional actor
and I love theater and film and the use of visual metaphor and telling a story that way.
Um, but it also does help. It does help draw people in and people get excited about it.
People like it. It's very different. It's something that not a lot of people can do.
You know, when I started out on youtube, nobody was summarizing Plato, but now you throw a
stone in a woods and you'll hit 50.
Youtube was summarizing Plato, right? So incorporating that stuff is kind of like something that
only, that only I can do and sort of brings my unique creative twist to it, which I love.
Um, and it does, it does help people learn in different ways. Cause there's more than
one way of skinning the cat. You know, sometimes people will say, I don't really get what you
mean by, um, by Timothy Morton's concept of the hyper object of climate change. And I
say, well, it's in front of you because that's the costume I'm wearing. It's like a visual
representation of his whole book on this philosophy. So maybe if people find it hard to engage
one way, the quote theatrical stuff can help do it the other way. Like I did a video a
while ago on the philosophy of mind and trauma and it's all one uncut, half hour monologue.
There's no cuts to it. And that's not an accident. That's not jokes. I'm rambling. It's very
tightly scripted. It's because that is actually designed to tell you something about what
it's like to learn about trauma and to learn about these ideas. So I do it because I love
it and because it works and because it's just, yeah, it's so much fun and it helps people
learn.
Is there a particular um, uh, philosophical thought line that you think is most acutely
missing from the sort of brains of people that are discussing politics and culture and
the way that societies should be organized? Where if it was more known to people, we would
all be far better off. So like I often talk about how there's such a lack of critical
thinking and sort of learning how to learn and understanding how propaganda works and
that that's like a set of knowledge that would be very useful in general for a lot of the
conversations we're trying to have when it comes to philosophy. Is there something in
particular that you believe if more people studied and were acquainted with, we would
be much better positioned to figure out many of the problems that modern societies deal
with?
I definitely agree with you about propaganda and that it's, it's, it's useful to learn
how that works. I guess something that I, that I have struggled to find a way to teach,
um, is not even an idea or a set of ideas, but more like a set of skills that studying
varsity formally brought me, which is like how to read and break down an argument. So
sometimes I will get comments under my videos where people say, well, what about this thing,
this one tiny thing that you've said invalidates everything else? And I go, well, no, because
that's actually not really relevant. That was a side comment or that was an aside or
that's not, oh, actually if you take that out, the rest of it still works. So there's
something about argumentative structure and like logical structure that I have I think
picked up. It's not even a language, like almost a grammar of, of philosophical arguments,
which I have struggled to find a way to teach on its own. Um, and then I'm just always kind
of thinking about which, which I think would maybe be maybe be useful. Um, it's, it's not
even like reading comprehension. It's something even more basic now. Like logical comprehension
and like something being entailed by something else and like how arguments fit together I
think would be really, I would find it very useful. But then perhaps that's just me not
knowing how to effectively communicate with people that you haven't had that, that study.
Yeah, I mean it is, it is a skill in and of itself how to teach people how to teach themselves
so to speak or to teach people how to learn. And I 100% agree. I mean both in my academic
experience and my media experience, it just seems acutely, uh, a missing from a lot of
the conversations that we're having about so many of the most important issues of the
day. Uh, we've been speaking with Oliver Thorne who is not only a professional actor, but
also the creator of [inaudible]
philosophy tube on Youtube. Uh, Oliver, so great to speak to you. I really appreciate
your time. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun.