>> Steve: THE AGENDA THIS WEEK ASSESSED PROGRESS ON THE CALLS TO ACTION, FIVE YEARS ON FROM
THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION'S CAPSTONE REPORT.
[♪♪]
>> Steve: GABRIELLE, WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON THAT QUESTION OF WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THE TRUTH
AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION HAS ESSENTIALLY ACHIEVED ITS MISSION?
>> Gabrielle Fayant: I FEEL THAT THE TRC DID EVERYTHING THAT THEY NEEDED TO DO, EVERYTHING
THAT THEY WANTED TO DO IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE RECONCILIATION.
HOWEVER, I DO BELIEVE THAT RECONCILIATION IS ULTIMATELY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CANADIANS.
IT IS NOT UP TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO REPAIR THE HARM THAT CANADIANS HAVE DONE TO
INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
AND RIGHT NOW WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT THE BURDEN IS FALLING ON THE SHOULDERS OF INDIGENOUS
PEOPLE, AND THAT'S JUST NOT FAIR.
A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT RECONCILIATION IS DEAD, AND
THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY: RECONCILIATION IS DEAD.
AND THAT'S NOT TO TAKE AWAY ANY OF THE WORK THAT THE TRC HAS DONE OR THAT SURVIVORS HAVE
DONE, BUT THAT'S A REFLECTION ON THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT.
>> Steve: WE WILL SURELY COME BACK TO THAT COMMENT BECAUSE THAT'S A VERY -- THAT'S A VERY
STARK WAY TO DESCRIBE WHERE THINGS ARE AT TODAY.
SO TO BE SURE, GABRIELLE, WE'LL COME BACK ON THAT.
I WANTED TO GIVE YOU THREE A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN FIRST, AND NOW, BATTING CLEANUP, IF I CAN
PUT IT THAT WAY, CLAYTON SHIRT, YOU'RE THE ELDER AMONG US HERE.
LET'S GET YOUR VIEW ON THIS.
>> WELL, FIRST JUST TO SAY, I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF AN ELDER.
I'M JUST ELDERLY, I GUESS, I'M GETTING OLD.
THAT'S A TITLE THEY'VE GIVEN ME AND EVERYTHING, BUT I DON'T REALLY RECOGNIZE MYSELF AS AN
ELDER.
THAT'S MY COMMUNITY, THEY DO THAT.
SO WITH THAT.
BUT I WAS JUST SAYING -- I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT, WHEN THEY CAME HERE A FEW YEARS AGO, THE
COMMISSION CAME, AND WE SAT IN QUEEN'S PARK AND I WAS PART OF THAT, I WAS DOING A PIPE
CEREMONY THERE, AND WE DID THE CEREMONY AND ALL THE MINISTERS, EVERYBODY WAS THERE, AND I WAS
PART OF IT.
AND SO AS THEY TRAVELLED, IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING TO SEE, AND I WAS AMAZED AND I WAS VERY HAPPY
TO BE THERE.
BUT I KNEW THAT THIS WAS JUST THE BEGINNING OF THE BEGINNING.
AND TO JUST SAY THAT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO KEEP THIS CONVERSATION GOING BECAUSE
THAT'S ALL IT IS.
NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.
THAT'S THE REALITY.
NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE.
>> Steve: IF THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE BEGINNING, WHERE DO YOU THINK WE ARE RIGHT
NOW?
>> WE'RE NOT EVEN -- WE'RE STILL THERE.
WE'RE STILL TRYING TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, AND WE NEED -- AND SO -- AND I GET THE YOUTH.
I GET THEIR FRUSTRATION.
BUT WITH US, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO AND WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO AND OTHER PEOPLE IS TO KEEP THAT
CONVERSATION ALIVE.
THAT'S ALL.
IT'S UP TO THEM TO TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY AND TO SAY, OKAY, AND TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION
AND KEEP IT ALIVE BECAUSE IN THE REALITY OF ALL OF THIS, NOTHING HAS BEEN EVER DONE YET, RIGHT?
WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE 94 RECOMMENDATIONS AND ALL OF THIS.
AND SO WHEN I TALK TO -- WHEN I TALK TO SO MANY PEOPLE, NATIVE AND NON-NATIVE IN ALL OF THIS,
YOU KNOW, THIS GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO COME AND GO, THEY ALWAYS LIKE TO
WRITE A REPORT, RIGHT?
CANADA HAS A HISTORY OF WRITING REPORTS AND THEN THEY PUT IT ON A SHELF, RIGHT?
AND THEN THEY TELL THE PEOPLE -- AND THEN THEY GIVE THIS ILLUSION THAT THEY GIVE TO THE PEOPLE,
THE CITIZENS, ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT WE DID SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, AND SO THEY MISLEAD
THEIR OWN PEOPLE IN SAYING TO THEM, LOOK, WE DID SOMETHING.
AND I GET THIS CONVERSATION WITH THEM ALL THE TIME.
HEY, DIDN'T WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS?
HEY, NO.
>> Steve: FORGIVE ME.
LET'S GO THROUGH SOME OF THIS THEN, IF WE CAN.
WELL, LET ME JUST REMIND EVERYBODY, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF GENERAL AREAS THAT THE TRC
RECOMMENDATIONS TRIED TO FOCUS ON: EDUCATION, LANGUAGE AND CULTURE AND CHILD WELFARE,
HEALTH, JUSTICE, RECONCILIATION.
GABRIELLE, WE WILL COME BACK TO THAT.
PAM, YOU'RE A LAWYER, SO LET'S START WITH JUSTICE.
WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IMMEDIATELY TODAY TO MAKE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN CANADA
THINK, HMM, WE'VE MADE SOME PROGRESS ON JUSTICE?
>> Pamela Palmater: END GENOCIDE.
I MEAN, IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
IT MEANS CLEAR OUT THE PRISONS, WHICH ARE STUFFED WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
THAT INCLUDES YOUTH CORRECTIONS.
I MEAN, THE FASTEST GROWING PRISON POPULATION IS LITTLE INDIGENOUS GIRLS.
SOME OF THE YOUTH CORRECTION CENTRES ARE 98 PERCENT INDIGENOUS GIRLS.
WE NEED TO CLEAR OUT GROUP HOMES AND FOSTER HOMES AND KEEP INDIGENOUS CHILDREN WITH THEIR
FAMILIES.
YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE HOUSED.
THEY HAVE THE BASICS LIKE CLEAN DRINKING WATER.
THE FACT THAT I'M TALKING TO YOU ABOUT CLEAN DRINKING WATER SEEMS SURREAL.
AND SO I THINK WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RECONCILIATION, THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO GO ON
THE GROUND, DEALING WITH THINGS LIKE MURDERED AND MISSING INDIGENOUS WOMEN AND GIRLS.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE A LEGISLATIVE AMENDMENT HERE, A POLICY CHANGE HERE AND AN
APOLOGY OVER HERE -- THAT'S ALL AT THE HIGH SUPERFICIAL POLITICAL LEVEL.
IT'S NOT AT THE GROUND WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE.
AND I WOULD WELCOME ANY POLITICIAN FROM ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT TO WALK INTO AN URBAN
CENTRE LIKE WINNIPEG, DOWNTOWN WINNIPEG, IN A PANDEMIC, IN THE WINTER AND TAKE A LOOK AT ALL
THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THERE AND SAY, "WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS ON RECONCILIATION."
AND THAT'S LITERALLY HOW STARK IT IS.
THIS IS LITERALLY ABOUT LIFE AND DEATH.
IT SHOULDN'T BE IN THIS POLITICAL REALM THAT IT IS.
[♪♪]
>> Steve: JENNIFER, I WANT TO START WITH YOU BECAUSE IT'S BEEN FIVE YEARS SINCE THE TRUTH AND
RECONCILIATION COMMISSION CALLS TO ACTION CAME OUT, AND I WANT TO KNOW, IN YOUR VIEW, WHETHER
OR NOT YOU THINK IT HAS LED TO GREATER JUSTICE FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLES IN THIS COUNTRY.
>> Jennifer Dockstader: NOT BY A LONG SHOT, UNFORTUNATELY.
WE STILL HAVE SO MUCH WORK TO DO.
>> Steve: NOT BY A LONG SHOT, YOU SAY.
BUT CAN YOU SAY THAT THE YARDSTICKS ARE AT LEAST MOVING?
>> I WOULD SAY THAT IN SOME AREAS THE YARDSTICKS ARE MOVING, AND I'M SEEING EDUCATION TO
YOUNG PEOPLE STARTING TO MOVE.
I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME AND A COUPLE OF GENERATIONS YET TO ACTUALLY
EDUCATE EVERYBODY TO THE POINT THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE INJUSTICES ARE.
>> Steve: JOHN MOSCOWITZ, IN YOUR VIEW -- LET ME SET IT UP THIS WAY.
YOU REPRESENT A PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THEIR SHARE OF HISTORICAL TRAUMA.
CAN A 5-YEAR-OLD REPORT WITH MANY RECOMMENDATIONS STILL INCOMPLETE, CAN THAT HELP HEAL A
COMMUNITY?
>> John Moscowitz: NOT IN THE LEAST.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT A 5-YEAR-OLD REPORT.
THIS IS ABOUT A RECOVERY FROM TRAUMA IMPOSED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA ON THE INDIGENOUS
NATIONS OF THE COUNTRY AND IT WILL TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF EDUCATION, AS JENNIFER SAID, A
GREAT DEAL OF TIME, RECOVERY OF A CULTURE, AND THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT, AS YOU'RE
SUGGESTING, OF THE TRAUMA.
>> Steve: DO YOU HAVE A SENSE ABOUT, AS YOU LOOK THROUGH HISTORY, ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES
FOR THAT MISSION TO BE ACCOMPLISHED?
>> EVERY CULTURE IS DIFFERENT.
LOOK, MY PEOPLE, THE JEWS, WERE IN EXILE AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMP FOR THE BETTER PART
OF 2,000 YEARS.
WE WERE ABLE TO SUSTAIN BECAUSE LEARNING SUSTAINED AND FAMILY SUSTAINED, IN EXILE.
THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE WITH FIRST NATIONS.
FAMILIES WERE SEPARATED.
EDUCATION WAS FARMED OUT TO GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS.
IT'S GOING TO BE MUCH HARDER.
THERE IS NO FULL HEALING, THERE IS NO FULL RECOVERY, BUT THERE CAN BE A RECOVERY.
IT DOES TAKE TIME.
IT TAKES COURAGE.
AND IT TAKES THE SUPPORT OF THE CANADIAN PEOPLE AND THE GOVERNMENT.
>> Steve: RAYMOND de SOUZA, WE LIVE IN A WESTERN-STYLE COUNTRY THAT, WHEN IT SEES A
PROBLEM, TENDS TO APPOINT A COMMISSION AND WRITE A STUDY, AND WE DO THAT FOR A LOT OF
DIFFERENT ISSUES AND WE'VE DONE IT MANY, MANY TIMES ON THIS ISSUE AS WELL.
IN YOUR VIEW, CAN WE MAKE PROGRESS TAKING THAT APPROACH?
>> Fr. Raymond de Souza: WELL, ON THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION, YOU'RE RIGHT.
IT'S ONE OF SEVERAL COMMISSIONS.
IN TERMS OF PRACTICAL STEPS WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THE RECOMMENDATIONS, THERE'S A LOT
TO BE DONE.
BUT I THINK UNUSUALLY FOR GOVERNMENT COMMISSIONS, THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION
COMMISSION ACTUALLY DID CHANGE IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY HOW THINGS ARE DISCUSSED AND TALKED ABOUT,
THE SESQUI CENTENNIAL OF THE COUNTRY IN 2015 -- 2017, PARDON ME, WAS QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT.
PUBLIC CEREMONIES AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE DIFFERENT.
THE NAMING OF BUILDINGS AT MY UNIVERSITY, QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY, YOU HAD A PROGRAM ABOUT THE SIR
JOHN A. MACDONALD LAW SCHOOL.
I THINK THE TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION IN TERMS OF IMPROVED LIVELIHOOD FOR
INDIGENOUS CANADIANS MAY BE LACKING, AS POINTED OUT.
IN TERMS OF CHANGING THE CONVERSATION AND HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT CANADA'S HISTORY
IT'S HAD ACTUALLY, I WOULD SAY, QUITE AN UNUSUALLY LARGE IMPACT FOR A GOVERNMENT REPORT.
>> Steve: THAT'S JUST SOME OF WHAT WE COVERED THIS WEEK ON THE AGENDA.
FOR MORE, YOU CAN VISIT OUR WEBSITE, tvo.org, OUR YouTube CHANNEL AT youtube.com/theagenda
OR OUR TWITTER FEED: twitter.com/TheAgenda.