DAVID SPEERS, PRESENTER: Chris Bowen, welcome to the program.
Let's start on this.
There's been a lot of debate about easing restrictions.
Victoria's actually been the most cautious of the states.
Do you think that there is a need to reassess the 3-stage reopening plan?
CHRIS BOWEN, SHADOW HEALTH MINISTER: Well, I think what this does is reinforce what we've
been saying - that there's a long way to go yet.
That we're not through this.
We've provided bipartisan support to Premiers of all parties who have taken a cautious approach,
because that's the right thing to do.
We have been aware for a long time that a second wave is a distinct possibility if we
are not very cautious.
I've been disappointed to see political attacks on Premiers who are following the health advice
- whether it is Annastacia Palaszczuk or Dan Andrews, who has been attacked for being too
cautious by the Victorian Liberal Party, which strikes me as a particularly low-rent and
immature operation, when Dan has been providing the leadership necessary and taking a cautious
approach.
I think he's been right to do so.
We have a long way to go yet.
Until this virus is defeated everywhere, it's not defeated anywhere.
We have to remember, six months ago, one person in the world had this virus, and since then,
it has wreaked havoc across the planet.
And until we have this under control completely, it is not under control at all.
So hence, we all want to see the economy opened up.
We all want to see borders open.
We all want to see it being back to normal.
But it would be irresponsible to do it too quickly.
I think that Dan Andrews has shown real leadership as have the other Premiers in taking a cautious
approach . I'm not going to single out a particular party here.
All of the Premiers have shown leadership and a cautious approach and they are to be
congratulated for it.
SPEERS: Let's turn to branch stacking.
Can you explain why Adem Somyurek was booted out of the Labor Party?
BOWEN: The first and most important thing is what we saw here was wrong and unacceptable.
It was not the Labor Party at its best.
The industrial scale branch stacking, the vendettas, the attacks.
That's not the Labor Party at its best - far from it - the opposite.
And the people who have right to be the most angry about this are Labor Party, the true
believers, the good people who turn up week after week with no personal agenda or ambition.
And the people who rely on us to form governments, and the people who know that Australia is
better off with Labor governments.
The true believers are the ones...
SPEERS: So why specifically was Adem Somyurek booted out of the Labor Party?
BOWEN: Well I think that was all pretty self-evident on 60 Minutes.
SPEERS: Can you explain it to me.
What was the reason?
BOWEN: I think it was all pretty self-evident.
Anybody who saw the show could see the branch stacking, the personal agendas and the vendettas.
SPEERS: So was it the branch stacking?
BOWEN: If I could just...
David, you asked me a question.
If you could let me answer the question.
Anthony Albanese and Dan Andrews have shown great leadership in responding very strongly.
I heard the discussion before the argument was about whether they've done too much.
I'll take that discussion.
I'd prefer the discussion about whether the leaders have acted too much rather than not
enough.
(CROSS-TALK) BOWEN: Leadership is forged in difficult times.
SPEERS: Is the reason...
BOWEN: …..it is forged in difficult times and that's what Anthony Albanese and Daniel
Andrews have both done.
SPEERS: The reason for the expulsion, was that the branch stacking?
BOWEN: I think that you could say all of the above.
There was industrial scale branch stacking, there was personal vendettas there was clearly
inappropriate attacks on colleagues.
It was all there for all to see.
SPEERS: OK, attacks on colleagues is not unique to Adem Somyurek.
I'm just trying to be clear about that.
BOWEN: Well quite right and not unique to the Australian Labor Party either.
(CROSS-TALK) SPEERS: The reason for the expulsion was the
scale of the branch stacking, is that right?
BOWEN: Well, I think that you could see an industrial scale operation in place, and clearly,
it was an attempt to subvert the proper processes of the Labor Party and was unacceptable.
SPEERS: So is a smaller amount of branch stacking OK?
BOWEN: Well, no branch stacking is acceptable.
Now, of course, there will always be matters of scale.
But no branch stacking is acceptable.
And all allegations should be taken seriously.
SPEERS: That brings us to New South Wales.
A New South Wales state frontbencher stood down from the front bench on Friday.
Seven other members were suspended after allegations of branch stacking.
Should anyone involved there be expelled from the party?
BOWEN: Let's have a look at that.
As I said, all allegations of branch stacking should be properly examined, and this one
has been.
There was an anonymous dossier prepared about a few branches - quite small branches, but
a few branches.
Bob Nanva instigated a full inquiry, which has now been reported and made public.
It's made a series of recommendations which have either been implemented or are being
implemented.
Julia Finn has stood aside to enable the relevant tribunal to consider her future, her role.
Look, as I said, every piece of branch stacking should be taken seriously.
Every allegation should be taken seriously.
But in New South Wales, bulk membership renewals are not allowed.
We have a trip wire so that only a small number of members can be admitted to a branch at
every meeting.
(CROSS-TALK) SPEERS: But still these problems persist,
this internal inquiry found fake documents, impropriety and so on.
Again, it comes down to whether some level of this behaviour is OK?
Or whether there is a zero tolerance approach?
BOWEN: There's a zero tolerance approach, David.
SPEERS: So should someone involved in this be...
BOWEN: ...There’s a zero tolerance approach, but there's a process to go through.
This has been referred to the relevant tribunals of the party and that's an independent process,
they are independent people.
I must say David, I've always found Julia Finn a strong local member, fully engaged
with her community and a good person in politics for the right reasons.
But there are issues to be worked through, these are matters that should be referred
to the tribunal.
Julia Finn has done the right thing standing aside to allow that to occur.
SPEERS: I'm not defending Adem Somyurek here, but it doesn't sound like he was given the
chance to go through that process to defend his position at all.
It seems that it was a very quick morning after - out you go.
But with the New South Wales example, it's something different?
BOWEN: Well, I think there's a difference between an expose with things caught on film
and an anonymous dossier.
SPEERS: Isn't that the very point here – that because it was caught on camera, there's a
different reaction?
BOWEN: You don't, you react according to the evidence before you.
The National Executive, in my view, did the right thing with the evidence before it.
And Bob Nanva and the New South Wales Labor Party have had the right approach with the
evidence before them in this case.
And look, there's allegations from time to time in all political parties.
Malcolm Turnbull boasted the biggest branch stacking operation in Australian history and
ended up as prime minister.
All political parties go through this from time to time.
But it’s how you deal with it though...
SPEERS: As a Western Sydney MP, can you say that there is no branch stacking in the Western
Sydney branches of the Labor Party?
BOWEN: Oh, I find the branches in the Labor Party to be good branches operating well,
and in the way that they should.
That's my observation....
SPEERS: But do they branch stack.
BOWEN: And everywhere else I go...
SPEERS: The question was whether there's branch stacking?
BOWEN: I've seen no evidence of it, David, no.
But we have this...
SPEERS: Apart from this internal inquiry.
BOWEN: And that is being fully investigated.
SPEERS: Well, given that there is at least the inquiry finding of branch stacking in
New South Wales, given we also know about the Aldi bag of cash, $100,000 from a Chinese
billionaire going to the State Secretary, why isn't the National Executive intervening
in the New South Wales branch in this way?
BOWEN: There, have been big changes in New South Wales.
There have been wholesale changes, both changes to personnel and to approach.
And that was appropriate.
It was handled appropriately for the circumstances.
As I said, political parties will go through this.
The Victorian Liberal Party has got a former state director in prison.
Malcolm Turnbull ran a massive stacking operation to get into Parliament.
What matters is how you respond, and Anthony Albanese and Daniel Andrews have responded
very strongly to this, and Bob Nanva in New South Wales has responded very well to the
very, quite different set of circumstances.
SPEERS: Different scale.
BOWEN: I understand the connection that you're making, but a very different set of circumstances.
SPEERS: I'm just trying to determine whether there's a certain amount that's OK, or whether
it is zero tolerance?
BOWEN: I think I dealt with that by saying of course, no branch stacking is OK.
But you deal with the evidence that you have before you.
SPEERS: OK.
In Victoria, is it your understanding that rank and file members for the next three years
will not get a vote on any pre-selection?
BOWEN: Well, I understand that's the nature of the intervention.
Of course, the criticism that you and your colleagues were making was that maybe that's
too long and too much.
But again, I would take that criticism, rather than people saying that the National Executive
hadn't done enough.
Obviously, people will be working to restore the Victorian branch to its normal operations
as quickly as possible.
But as I said before, I think the branch members of Victoria are the ones who have the right
to be angriest, because they're the ones let down by an attempt to subvert the processes
where they, as good men and women of the Labor Party, have a say in the personnel and policy
decisions facing the Party.
SPEERS: Let me ask you about the beneficiaries of the alleged industrial scale branch stacking
in Victoria that we've been talking about there.
Adem Somyurek did say in this 60 Minutes story that people like Josh Burns and Tim Watts
are only there because of what he’s done.
He said, "Tim Watts is like bowing to me."
Are you confident that these colleagues of yours were legitimately pre-selected?
BOWEN: Absolutely, and my understanding is that Tim Watts barely knows Adem Somyurek,
for example.
Let's have a proper evidentiary approach to this.
The members of the Labor Party in the Federal Parliament are good quality individuals.
And let me say this David - I would take our team over the other team any day of the week.
We bat deep in terms of talent.
There are backbenchers who could walk into cabinet meeting tomorrow and hold their own.
As opposed to the government which struggles to form a cabinet with the talent that they
have.
So the Labor Caucus is as good a quality as it's ever been with a wide array of experiences
and professions and talents expressed in the Caucus.
I'm very proud of my Caucus colleagues, all of them, regardless what state they come from
- including the Victorians.
SPEERS: Just stepping back and taking a bigger picture look at this problem which, as you
rightly point out, isn't just confined to the Labor Party.
Years ago, you wrote a book called Hearts and Minds, where you supported the idea of
at least trialing community pre-selections, taking that power deciding who candidates
are out of the people who are signed up to the political party.
Is that still a good idea, do you think?
BOWEN: I think it can be an appropriate option in some circumstances, yes.
It has been done a little bit in New South Wales.
Moving to more the primary system, as you say, community primaries and community pre-selections.
I think that there are circumstances where it can add value, where it can be the right
approach.
I wouldn't say that it is the right approach for absolutely every seat and absolutely every
cycle.
But I do think that the Labor Party, it is good to have that option.
It has happened a bit in New South Wales, and I think it's been a good reform, and one
which may play a role going forward for the Labor Party, and if other parties choose to
take it up as well.
SPEERS: So should this current crisis in Victoria perhaps be a catalyst to return to that idea?
BOWEN: I think we should always be looking at fresh and innovative ideas to ensure that
our candidate selection process is robust and putting up the best people, that our party
is reforming.
Reform is a never receding finishing line David.
You can't just say - tick, we've done that.
You always be thinking about new ideas.
SPEERS: I want to talk about the cyber attacks the Prime Minister was talking about on Friday.
A lot of people are working at home at the moment.
A lot of businesses have their staff working from home.
Are you worried that increases the risk of cyber attack at the moment?
BOWEN: What I'm worried about is that the Prime Minister held a press conference, fair
enough.
But the government has been completely asleep at the wheel when it comes to cyber security.
I mean, Tim Watts, our cyber security spokesperson has pointed out that 40% of government
agencies don't do the basic work necessary.
We don't have a cyber security strategy in place.
The 2016 one has run out.
And Scott Morrison hasn't renewed it.
And there is no minister dedicated, with dedicated responsibility to cyber security.
So holding a press conference and lecturing businesses that they need to do better and
warning Australians is - OK, fine.
Get your own house in order.
I'm worried about the government's level of exposure.
The government has not taken this seriously.
We've provided constructive support to any sensible measures to enhance cyber security.
But only the government of the day has the levers available to it to ensure that every
day, government data is being protected.
And under this government, under Scott Morrison there has been more marketing than substance
when it comes to ensuring that Australia is safe against
cyber security attacks from wherever they may come.
SPEERS: When you say that the Government is not taking this seriously, though, what's
the evidence of that?
I take your point about the strategy needs updating, and I think that the PM said that
it will within the coming months.
But it doesn't sound, from what I'm told, that there has been a successful breach of
government or business databases here?
BOWEN: The evidence is the Australian National Audit Office reports, which show that 40%
of government agencies aren't doing the basic work.
That 29% of government, Commonwealth entities aren't doing the work necessary.
The fact that we don't have a strategy in place as we speak.
I mean, David, if I said to you - ‘do you think that Australia should have a cyber security
strategy?’
I think that you and most thinking and reasonable Australians would say - ‘yeah, that sounds
like a reasonable idea’.
We don't.
It's expired and gone.
It's finished.
It hasn't been renewed.
The government hasn't got around to renewing it.
They've been too busy holding press conferences and more involved in the marketing it than
the substance of ensuring that Australia’s data is safe.
SPEERS: Chris Bowen, thanks for joining us.
BOWEN: Always a pleasure David.