hey Ben welcome to the show what's on
your mind man so I was thinking back to
my first logo job and it was for 50
bucks W so I'm wondering have you ever
done a logo for
$50 people in our audience might have
designed a logo for $50 or somewhere
around there a couple hundred bucks and
that's crazy talk to me so I want to get
into the psychology why you would ever
consider charging $50 for a logo why you
kept doing it cuz it sounds like you've
done it more than once it wasn't just
the first time so if you want to know
the answers to that stick around you
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guys you're a graphic designer you went
to what is it media art Arts you studied
media arts and then you went to the
military and then you worked as a
undercover cop then you came back into
design so that's a little framing up
your story in a nutshell yeah so tell me
a little bit about how you got back into
doing design as a profession my wife and
I fostered a litter of puppies and one
of the puppies was really sick and the
animal shelter wanted to put the the
puppy down they wanted to kill it and uh
the only way that we could convince them
not to kill the dog
was to come up with the funds ourself to
help this dog out so basically I did a
logo and a website and and started a
like a Kickstarter type campaign to
raise funds for this this little puppy
were you successful we were we raised
like $800 no $1,800 wow so now this is
beyond just doing design work you're
kind of thinking about messaging and
marketing and you were quite successful
how did that make you feel I it was
great I mean I basically saved the life
with this and that meant a lot to me I
get emails comments direct message from
people all over the world where they
either live in an area for whatever
reason people do not value the work that
they do mhm so they're in that space
where they're going to charge way below
market value for a logo so let's get
into it you you've said you've done many
logos for $50 right is that an
exaggeration or you literally charge $50
no it's not an exaggeration at all okay
how many of these things did you do oh
probably 20 oh my gosh yeah 20 I assume
since you've done 20 of them that you
didn't feel like it was wrong like it
was too little no no as a matter of fact
the first one I did was um for a blogger
and uh you know she was just this sweet
girl from North Carolina that really
needed something that looked good and I
hooked her up and it was great so how'
she even find you through odesk oh okay
yeah oh right you mentioned that Odes
using odesk it's it's it's borderline
Fiverr okay so uh it's like one notch
above yeah exactly instead of $5 it was
50 okay it's like your fiverr's homeless
yeah uh Odes is the projects you get
like a cardboard
box is there a fire at least 54 I didn't
know how to find clients I didn't know
how to you know run a business anything
using odesk was a great way for me to
just tap into CL cents Unfortunately
they were the wrong type of clients
right who determine the $50 price the
client okay so you already knew going in
they determined a $50 price and did you
have to compete for it yes wow okay so
now not only are you getting paid way
way way below market value you had to
compete for it so there was a chance you
wouldn't get it so you're doing work on
spec and the reward was not even that
good correct but maybe you know it's not
always about money you're a millennial
right you're you're just like you you
want to have purpose and for the first
time in your life I assume you're doing
something that's very creatively
fulfilling for you so the price is just
incidental it didn't even matter right I
get that the first one you do whatever
you need to do yep so what made you
continue doing this for $50 because the
feeling has to start wearing away the
novelty of getting paid to do creative
work has to wear off right or did yes it
did it did how many logos in did to
start to wear off probably 10 before
realized that you know hey this is my
work is way more valuable but at that
point you're you're like you made a
whopping 500 bucks you're like I'm a pie
roller dinner's on me honey that's right
all right so I have a lot of questions
for you you you may or may not have some
questions for me so I'm this is like a
totally different world for me I feel
like um we do the same kinds of things
and so when you charge $50 I was think I
was just kind of it blew my mind like
that's crazy that you would do it for
that because I would charge probably
5,000 m or 20,000 or something totally
different amount of money so let's get
into your psychology before we kind of
get into mine because I think our
audience there's quite a few people in
our audience that are probably more in
your lane than in my Lane okay so why
didn't occur to you to ask for more
money the first reason is I I had no
idea what people were charging so I had
no idea um no context no context at all
I remember a talk um there was a TED
Talk by the the guy from Portland talked
about burito doing a logo for burritos
uh is that a bearded guy yeah I think
that's Aaron dropin right yes yes so
when I heard him speak and this is
probably a year in um he said hey I did
a logo for a burrito and I instantly
identified with that cuz you're like
that's me yeah I would totally do that
yeah and then he also said I did a logo
for $220,000 M that blew my mind okay so
I just had no idea what people were
charging okay so let's take take me
through your thought process there so
instantly the question was why can he
charge that much right and that sent me
on kind of a quest and I was basically
trying to figure out what he was doing
differently mhm and the short answer is
he wasn't doing anything differently you
know his logos his his work is great but
I felt like mine was pretty great too
right um so that wasn't it so that that
set me down this journey of trying to
figure out like I'm just differ this
totally curious yeah um how did you try
to find out like what were you searching
for cuz I I don't even know what you
would type in the computer to find out
oh you know I just looked at his
portfolio so you went to the whatever
the dropin Design Group or whatever
company I just compared and tried to
figure out what more he was giving to
his clients and in the end it wasn't
anything different or more than I was
doing okay so you compare portfolios
basically mhm and you said well
technically it's it looks the same so
what's the next question to try to
figure out why he can charge so much
more I somehow wound up in the AIG guide
book of prices um which flipping through
that thing they've got a $4,000 brochure
$88,000 brochure um seeing that list of
prices which just I I just didn't think
anybody could get there because the
market that I was looking that was
unrealistic then it totally unrealistic
so um that's kind of where my search
stopped I I just I couldn't figure out
what he was doing differently when these
people these clients were going to odesk
Elance these places that I was pulling
the jobs from I don't know that they
were expecting the quality that I was
giving them mhm and so you know my
feedback was just immensely positive oh
okay and so I don't want to say it made
up for the low budgets but it gave me a
great feeling so this is about
affirmation validation this was better
than flipping burgers or stocking
something on a grocery store shelf even
if hour for hour you're being paid the
same amount you're getting paid to use
your brain this is very much like a
white collar job totally and there's
there's kind of another element to it as
well I never got to take a project from
the beginning to the end and so I was
always kind of interjected in the middle
or I would start the project and it got
pulled out from under me um and so there
was a real satisfaction in taking a
project all the way through and having
Control process you were able to see
your idea all the way through execution
right and so that gave you a lot of
fulfillment as well yeah felt like it
was in control yeah did you ever run
into a situation where as while you're
designing the logo the clients asked you
for more and then you're entitled to ask
for an overage mhm and how did you
handle that largely I tried to avoid the
conflict with the client and so I
wouldn't charge an overage and uh I
would just kind of eat that time with
the extra revisions but there was a
couple times where um the revision
requests were so intense there were so
many of them that I went ahead and and I
had to ask and I felt horrible I felt
like uh they were we had agreed to a
price on a product and even though the
overage was built into the agreement
I felt Shady asking for
it
why usually when people say they feel
Shady it's because they're asking for
something they know is wrong mhm so you
were in the
right and if I know you it was like it
wasn't like the third revision one
beyond the one you were contracted for
that you raised the flag we're in the
teens now right so the the Line in the
Sand had eroded so much so you kind of
hit your own breaking point to say I
think I need to ask for something here
but I feel Shady so use that word why
did you use that word what was what was
going on in your mind I just uh you know
for
me when you agree on a price up front um
I just felt bad asking asking for more
money um because for me technically it
didn't cost anything more because it was
just my time oh I see so so that uh I
think that was my big
hangup okay so there was it wasn't like
there was raw materials that you were
using like planks of wood right or you
had to buy bags of cement or something
like that that you can clearly see now
that you're paying to do the job right
what you failed to realize at that point
in time was that you were using a
resource the most valuable resource that
you have your time right you can't get
that back no amount of money can buy
your time back so you freely gave away
your time and undermine your own value
and self worth mhm okay cuz for me I'd
rather not do that at all for 50 bucks
and go watch a movie right cuz that's
really not going to do anything for me
it's such an insignificant amount of
money that why even do it I look at it
like this if you look in the real world
um if you buy a pair of designer jeans
and I'm talking about like some nice
ones it's going to be $200 $180 $130
something like that maybe from diesel or
something like that and that's
mass-produced garment made in third
world country mhm and so what you're
saying is this work that requires
thinking empathy creativity and
connecting dots and craftsmanship is
worth less than a mass-produced pair of
genes so one thing that I realize with
people and is the lack of symmetry in
their logic mhm so we equate the value
of the logo as $50 but then we see no
problem with somebody charging US $
bucks I'm not saying you wear designer
jeans but paying $150 for a pair of
designer jeans something is lopsided
there right just think about that two is
if you went to a
restaurant and ordered a glass of
beer so they charge you a certain amount
how what do they charge you for a glass
of beer like a good IPA seven seven
bucks a glass so they pour you a glass
and you drink it all and you're a big
man you're still thirsty is it an
expectation is is this expectation fair
and real that they keep filling that
glass because the original agreed price
was $7 absolutely not right but you
answer that question really fast and
maybe you already knew where I kind of
I'm setting the trap for you to walk
into so you know the setup already so
why is it that
you're okay giving away a resource until
the client is
satisfied and even though you've
repoured that glass that design 14
times that you felt
guilty or Shady for saying well here's
your bar
Bill you've ordered 14 cups of beer
glasses of beer and our policy is I give
you two for free two refills for free
but there's a finite amount of refills I
can give you plus now you're drunk and I
got to get you out of the
bar so that's a very powerful thing to
think about in terms of making sure your
thinking is straight symmetry of logic
right what's good for them is also good
for me I always thought that I want to
charge as much as possible cuz whatever
I did was worth way more than what I
could charge what was reasonable rate so
I would look at the aiga guide and have
a totally different reaction than you
right you looked at it and said that's
unrealistic I said that's unrealistic I
got to charge five times as much as
what's in the guide so this has a lot to
do with how I look at things the
difference is confidence okay well tell
me about your experiences well you know
I when I was charging $50 for a logo I
had no confidence in myself to charge
anymore um and even when I saw other
people charging that yeah
and the the guide book from AIG it just
I didn't think it was possible for me
here's the question I have for you is
the first logo you designed for 50 bucks
they're like wow wonderful you're
amazing you surpass my expectations we
love you didn't it occur to you like on
the next one I'll try and charge
$100 double it no I had this mentality
of maybe I'm I may not get this term
right but like
that a logo would be a commodity and so
it had a certain value there's a ceiling
yeah where oh I see I was going to sell
as many logos as I could and that's a
lot of the searches that I did was how
to get more clients not how to charge
more but how to get more and how to do
what I do faster okay to make more money
so then if you look at eyeglasses like
we both wear glasses right we can go
into um a swap
and buy a pair of plastic frame glasses
for 15 20 bucks we can do that or we can
go to the optical shop of Aspen or some
shop like that and pick out an Alan
meekley or Philipe Stark one of those
brands or a Gucci like Aaron rocks it's
going to be $600 for the
frames so those guys make fewer frames
at a higher cost or a higher price and
and the other guys make in volume at a
lower cost both can survive and thrive
in the
world I've always looked at myself as
one who aspires to create a luxury
premium item versus a volume discount
person so it's a whole different
mentality and we we talk a lot about
having this the success principles the
mindset and it's all about mindset
because technically you were doing the
exact same thing as rlin or Michael beay
or one of these kind of Rockstar
designers you're doing the same work
technically but they're positioned
differently than you right and I don't
want to dive too deep into position
because that's for a future episode I'm
going to do and I'm going to explain
that so what do you think Looking Back
Now what could you say to the younger
version of you like this is actually not
two chairs it's like Hot Tub Time
Machine like two love seat time machine
we're like back right yeah and you get
to tell younger Ben burns on
odesk what are you going to tell him
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