And for more analysis of today's hearing. I am here with Mary McCord,
director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection
and a former Justice Department official.
And Jameel Jaffer. He's a law professor at George Mason University
and former associate counsel to President George W. Bush. Hello to
both of you. Thank you for being with us tonight and during our special
coverage.
Today. Jameel Jaffer, I want to come to you first. Because again
so much of this evidence As we've just been hearing from our own
correspondents today was around President Former President Trump
his role. What he heard what he did and what he didn't do. He remains
at the center of everything we are hearing.
Yeah, That's exactly right. Judy. What's clear is the president understood
what was likely to happen. He was clearly talking to folks outside
the White House in the lead up to the events that happened on January
6th, including a sensibly either he or people around him were telling
the organizers that there will be a call that they weren't supposed
to talk about, but there will be a call to march on the capital.
That was something that they that they tweeted about. Internally
we now know was disclosed them early on the president. What appeared
to have originally been a sort of moment that would have happened,
you know, spontaneously turns out to have been planned moment. The
president of people around the president knew that was gonna happen.
And there were other really interesting, revealing points. Today's
testimony there was there was so much to look at and Mary McCord
I mean, as you as you look at this, you see again, just a cascading
set of
Pieces of evidence of information that add up to a president who
was looking for affirmation for what he believed in what he wanted
to do. That's right, And I think one of the other really revealing
things was and you know the excerpts you played earlier at the top
of the hour focused on this this December 18th really heated meeting
where his own White House advisers
Basically said, We're not going to support you doing any of these
things that Sidney Powell and Michael Flynn and Rudy Giuliani were
suggesting that he could do he should do. They just went to the mat,
and it resulted in yelling and shouting and they refused. And it
seems like then he reached a decision point which was okay.
I'm not going to get any help from my White House advisers. I'm going
to go to the people and he tweeted you know that early morning, be
there be wild. And And that was the calling card for extremist groups
such as the oath keepers, the proud boys, the three percenters and
individuals like Stephen Ayers and so many people who have been just
you know, and Stephen Ayers said this who had been addicted to his
social media.
Reading everything that President Trump had ever said about a fraudulent
election and what others were saying, all of which were lies and
which he now knows where lies and as we were watching this unfold
in real time, Jameel Jaffer, We had no idea what was going on, or
very I should say, very little idea what was going on inside.
The White House. I know there was certainly reporting at the same
time, but we're now learning that there were a number of people around
the president who were saying to him and talking to each other about
what was happening was wrong. It was illegal.
Right now. That's exactly right. I mean, Patsy baloney. Now it's
clear, uh, made clear to the president. He didn't think he was getting
good advice that these folks around the president Sidney Powell,
Rudy Giuliani, this Overstock dot com CEO who simply didn't even
know and asked him who he was in this meeting in the White House,
the gloves. I mean, you know, by the way, it's worth noting that
whereas the Bush administration there was no chance that you would
have had three random people
In the Oval with the president, you know, with no supervision, no
White House staff. I mean, it's completely crazy. And the idea of
the president getting legal advice from these folks, Um, you know,
is catastrophic as pets, Miller rightly pointed out, um and, you
know, look, he made credit president. He did not agree with this
device. That was bad advice and then you go further. You look at
what he told Mark Meadows and said, Look
People are going to get hurt, and I'm not going to allow this to
go forward. If you recall Cassie hundreds this testimony and so it's
clear that you know that the president was aware that there were
concerns away as John Ratcliffe, his DNA said the same thing, And
so you know, it's nobody came down today. No Republican no Democrat
down today, the president knew what the potential was to happen.
And he acted and went forward nonetheless, knowing all that, and
that's the really troubling thing about what we've learned over the
last few weeks about Donald Trump and the January 6th events, and
in an additional point I think that emerged today.
Uh, Mary McCord. And this is something you follow is is the the role
that the these extremist groups play the oath keepers, the proud
boys. You were saying to us earlier that when you look at the bigger
picture of what happened, the president former president was using
them to achieve an end. He was and you know, they were very willingly
being used to the oath keepers. Now, some of the people, I think
You know on affiliated with extremist organizations really did get
used and lied to and then left hung out to dry. I mean, they're facing
the consequences. Criminal charges loss of their jobs loss of their
reputations. But groups like the oath keepers. This is the kind of
thing that Stewart Rhodes and other leaders of extremist organizations
have have wanted for years. You know, there
Their anti government organizations. They're willing to lose use
violence against the U. S government. They've done it in the past
as Jason ventilation have, um, explain today, a former propagandists
for the oath keepers. You know they they you know, faced off against
federal agents back in Bunkerville, Nevada in 2014 and federal agents.
Backed away, but you know, because they had firearms, you know, they
were in the sights of snipers on overpasses. But here was a chance
to actually bring these groups together, coalesced together and coalesce
with people in President Trump's orbit who wanted to use that who
were willing and the trump himself willing to use these types of
means.
To maintain his illegitimate power. And I think you know those of
us who studied some of these organizations have been really trying
to point out for years. Their their potential. You know their dangerousness
and it was really there in living color and hearing.
You know from a former spokesperson, I think gives us an insight
that we don't normally get. And I hope people will really understand
that these are threats and they need to be addressed and it's certainly
need to be taken.
Very, very seriously. Jim Jameel Jaffer just quickly. Another data
point today, um, which adds to the evidence we've already seen that
that former President Trump in that tweet that he drafted about after
after the rally, you'll be going to the capital. It wasn't sent.
But it does signal what was in the former president's mind at that
time.
No, That's exactly right, Judy. It was clear. Now we know that the
president was speaking about setting a tweet like that. We know that
the people around him told the rally organizers the president is
going to is going to send people to the capital. Don't tell anyone
keep it on the down low, but that's what's going to happen. So that
whole thing that looks spontaneous clearly was planned ahead of time
and then you add on what the president said to Cassie Hutchinson.
I know they have weapons. I don't care. Send them through the mags.
They're not here attacked me. They're going to the capital. We now
know what the president knew before. He called all those people to
go to the capital and we know the aftermath of what happened, Judy.
And and just quickly. Mary McCord. I mean it. It adds up to what
you've just been saying that when you think about the potential lethal
itty of these groups and the former president knowing that and then
he still was engaging them and urging them.
To move to move ahead. That's right. And it goes back to you know
the famous stand back and stand by the comment he made during a presidential
debate directed to the proud boys who immediately recruited based
on that and and and merchandised and made money based on that, and
so I think we really have to look to the future too, and we have
looked abroad. You know, in other countries, it was the willingness
of politicians
To ally with dangerous private militias that has caused you know
real collapses in democracies or the inability to development of
democracies and democracies and authoritarianism. And so
You know, there's the prospect in the future representative Raskin
mentioned and Jason it's It's real.
Sobering lessons from all of this. Mary McCord. Jameel Jaffer. Thank