>>> "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" STARTS NOW WITH ALI VELSHI IN
FOR RACHEL.
FOR RACHEL. >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT HOLIDAY.
RACHEL HAS THE NIGHT OFF, BUT
SHE WILL BE BACK HERE TOMORROW
NIGHT.
NIGHT. IN THE MEANTIME, WE HAVE A LOT
TO GET TO TOMORROW NIGHT.
WHILE YOU WERE POLISHING OFF
THAT SECOND HELPING OF TURKEY,
THE BREAKING NEWS HAS BEEN
PILING UP FASTER THAN
THANKSGIVING LEFTOVERS, THANKS
IN LARGE PART TO SPECIAL COUNSEL
ROBERT MUELLER.
ROBERT MUELLER. SHORTLY BEFORE WE TOOK THE AIR
TONIGHT, THE FAMOUSLY RADIO
SILENT MUELLER TEAM DROPPED A
BOMBSHELL ABOUT THE PRESIDENT’S
CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT.
I’LL HAVE MORE ON THAT IN JUST A
MOMENT.
MOMENT. WE’RE ALSO FOLLOWING ANOTHER
BREAKING HEADLINE, THIS ONE OUT
OF MISSISSIPPI.
OF MISSISSIPPI. PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ON THE GROUND
THERE NOW.
THERE NOW. HE IS ABOUT TO HOLD HIS SECOND
RALLY TODAY FOR REPUBLICAN
SENATOR CINDY HYDE-SMITH, WHO
FACES OFF AGAINST DEMOCRAT MIKE
ESPY IN A RUNOFF ELECTION
TOMORROW.
TOMORROW. A RUNOFF THAT HAS AT TIMES FELT
LIKE AN OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE
IN TERMS OF HOW MANY TIMES IT
MADE YOU SHAKE YOUR HEAD AND SAY
DID THAT REALLY HAPPEN?
WHETHER IT WAS THE REPUBLICAN
CANDIDATE SAYING THAT SHE’D BE
IN THE FRONT ROW OF A PUBLIC
HANGING OR THE REPUBLICAN
CANDIDATE’S ROBOTIC ALMOST
COMICAL NONAPOLOGY FOR THOSE
OFFENSIVE REMARKS, OR HER DEBATE
PERFORMANCE IN WHICH SHE SEEMED
TO SAY HER GREATEST SELLING
POINT IS DONALD TRUMP, AS IF ALL
OF THAT WEREN’T SURREAL ENOUGH,
TODAY ON THE EVE OF THE RUNOFF,
THERE WERE THIS, NOOSES SEEN
HANGING ON TREES OUTSIDE THE
MISSISSIPPI STATE CAPITOL.
THIS RUNOFF IS SHAPING UP TO BE
AN MRI OF THE SOUL OF
MISSISSIPPI.
MISSISSIPPI. THE NEXT 24 HOURS ARE CRITICAL,
AND I’LL HAVE A LOT MORE ON THAT
IN JUST A MOMENT.
>>> BUT FIRST, TO THAT BREAKING
NEWS FROM SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT
MUELLER AND THE PRESIDENT’S
CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT.
THE FIRST TRUMP CAMPAIGN
OFFICIAL TO REACH A PLEA DEAL
WITH ROBERT MUELLER WAS HIS
FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER, GEORGE
PAPADOPOULOS, THIS GUYTON RIGHT.
HIS PLEA DEAL WAS ANNOUNCED IN
OCTOBER OF 2017.
ON THE VERY SAME DAY THAT
MUELLER CHARGED TRUMP CAMPAIGN
CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT, ON THE
LEFT, AND DEPUTY CAMPAIGN
CHAIRMAN RICK GATES WITH
MULTIPLE TAX AND MONEYLAUNDERING
CHARGES.
CHARGES. TODAY PAPADOPOULOS TURNED
HIMSELF INTO A MINIMUM SECURITY
CAMP ADJACENT TO THE FEDERAL
PRISON IN OXFORD, WISCONSIN, TO
BEGIN SERVING A 14-DAY SENTENCE
FOR LYING TO THE FBI ABOUT HIS
RUSSIA-LINKED CONTACTS.
RUSSIA-LINKED CONTACTS. PAPADOPOULOS RECEIVED THAT
RELATIVELY LIGHT SENTENCE FROM
THE JUDGE IN HIS CASE AFTER
MUELLER’S PROSECUTORS THIS
SUMMER FILED WHAT IS KNOWN AS A
PRESENTENCING MEMORANDUM.
PRESENTENCING MEMORANDUM. ESSENTIALLY, THEIR
ESSENTIALLY, THEIR RECOMMENDATION ABOUT HOW MUCH
JAIL TIME HE SHOULD RECEIVE
BASED ON THE GRAVITY OF HIS
CRIME AND THE USEFULNESS OF HIS
COOPERATION.
COOPERATION. NOW IN THAT SENTENCING MEMO TO
THE JUDGE, MUELLER’S PROSECUTORS
RECOMMENDED JAIL TIME FOR THE
ADVISER WAS APPROPRIATE AND
WARRANTED.
WARRANTED. QUOTE, HIS LIES NEGATIVELY
AFFECTED THE FBI’S RUSSIA
INVESTIGATION AND PREVENTED THE
FBI FROM EFFECTIVELY IDENTIFYING
AND CONFRONTING WITNESSES IN A
TIMELY FASHION.
TIMELY FASHION. THE DEFENDANT’S FALSE STATEMENTS
WERE INTENDED TO HARM THE
INVESTIGATION AND DID SO.
NOW WHEN IT CAME TIME TO
DESCRIBE THE EXTENT OF
PAPADOPOULOS’S COOPERATION, THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL TOLD THE JUDGE
THAT THE DEFENDANT DID NOT
PROVIDE SUBSTANTIAL ASSISTANCE,
SAYING THAT MUCH OF THE
INFORMATION HE PROVIDED CAME
ONLY AFTER THE GOVERNMENT
CONFRONTED HIM WITH HIS OWN
E-MAILS, TEXT MESSAGES, INTERNET
SEARCH HISTORY, AND OTHER
INFORMATION IT HAD OBTAINED VIA
SEARCH WARRANT AND SUBPOENAS.
AND WHILE PAPADOPOULOS CHECKING
INTO FEDERAL PRISON TODAY FOR A
TWO-WEEK STAY SIGNALS THAT HIS
ROLE IN THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION
IS LIKELY AT AN END, TONIGHT WE
LEARNED GAME-CHANGING NEW
DETAILS ABOUT THE COOPERATION OF
HIS BOSS DURING THE 2016
CAMPAIGN, TRUMP CAMPAIGN
CHAIRMAN PAUL MANAFORT.
REMEMBER, MANAFORT WAS CONVICTED
BY A VIRGINIA JURY THIS SUMMER
ON EIGHT COUNTS OF TAX AND BANK
FRAUD, BUT BEFORE THAT TRIAL
EVEN STARTED, THE FORMER TRUMP
CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN WAS ALREADY IN
JAIL.
JAIL. THAT WAS BEFORE -- JUST BEFORE
HIS TRIAL WAS DUE TO START IN
VIRGINIA, MUELLER FILED NEW
CHARGES AGAINST MANAFORT IN D.C.
ACCUSING BOTH HE AND HIS
LONG-TIME ASSOCIATE KONSTANTIN
KILIMNIK, WHO THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL ALLEGED TO HAVE HAD TIES
TO RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE, WITH
WITNESS TAMPERING RELATED TO
THEIR UKRAINE LOBBYING CAMPAIGN.
NOW, AS A RESULT, THE JUDGE
ORDERED MANAFORT JAILED PENDING
HIS TRIAL.
HIS TRIAL. AS THE JUDGE TOLD THE COURT AT
THE TIME, QUOTE, THIS IS NOT THE
FIRST TIME WE’VE HAD TO TALK
ABOUT HIM SKATING TOO CLOSE TO
THE LINE.
THE LINE. SHE WENT ON, I AM CONCERNED YOU
SEEM TO TREAT THESE PROCEEDINGS
AS JUST ANOTHER MARKETING
EXERCISE.
EXERCISE. YOU HAVE ABUSED THE TRUST THE
COURT PLACED IN YOU SIX MONTHS
AGO.
AGO. SO THAT WAS IN JUNE.
MANAFORT JAILED ON NEW CHARGES
OF WITNESS TAMPERING BEFORE HE
HAD EVEN GONE TO TRIAL.
AFTER BEING CONVICTED AT TRIAL
IN VIRGINIA IN AUGUST AND SAYING
HE WOULD NOT COOPERATE WITH THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL, MANAFORT
SURPRISED MANY BY STRIKING A
PLEA DEAL BEFORE HIS SECOND
TRIAL IN D.C. WAS DUE TO BEGIN
ON MONEYLAUNDERING CHARGES, AS
WELL AS THOSE RECENTLY FILED
WITNESS TAMPERING CHARGES.
AS PART OF THAT PLEA IN
SEPTEMBER, MANAFORT DESTROYED TO
ANSWER, QUOTE, FULLY,
TRUTHFULLY, COMPLETELY, AND
FORTHRIGHTLY QUESTIONS ABOUT ANY
AND ALL MATTERS THE GOVERNMENT
WANTED TO ASK.
WELL, NOW IT APPEARS THAT
MANAFORT MAY NOT HAVE DONE THAT,
AND PERHAPS IN RETROSPECT, WE
SHOULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING.
EARLIER THIS MONTH, WE GOT THIS
REPORT FROM ABC NEWS DETAILING
RISING TENSION BETWEEN MUELLER’S
TEAM AND MANAFORT OVER HIS LEVEL
OF COOPERATION.
OF COOPERATION. AS ABC REPORTED AT THE TIME,
MUELLER’S TEAM IS QUOTE, NOT
GETTING WHAT THEY WANT, SAID ONE
SOURCE WITH KNOWLEDGE OF THE
DISCUSSIONS.
DISCUSSIONS. QUOTE, SOURCES TOLD ABC NEWS
THERE IS FRUSTRATION OVER
WHETHER MANAFORT IS FULLY
PROVIDING THE INFORMATION HE
AGREED TO OFFER, PUTTING A
STRAIN ON THE DEAL.
THAT WAS A SINGLE REPORT ON
NOVEMBER 9th.
NOVEMBER 9th. THEN TEN DAYS AGO WE WERE
EXPECTING TO SEE MUELLER’S TEAM
FILE A PRESENTENCING MEMO
SPELLING OUT DETAILS SURROUNDING
MANAFORT’S COOPERATION, WHEN
BOTH SIDES PUSHED IT BACK,
INSISTING ON A RARE TEN-DAY
DELAY SO THAT MUELLER COULD
PREPARE, QUOTE, A REPORT THAT
WILL BE OF GREATER ASSISTANCE IN
THE COURT’S MANAGEMENT OF THIS
MATTER.
MATTER. THE REASON FOR THAT DELAY WAS
UNCLEAR.
UNCLEAR. THERE WAS A LOT OF SPECULATION
THAT SOMETHING MIGHT BE ABOUT TO
HAPPEN IN THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION, THAT MANAFORT
MIGHT POTENTIALLY BE HELPING
WITH.
WITH. WELL, TONIGHT WE HAVE OUR
ANSWER.
ANSWER. IN A NEW FILING THIS EVENING,
MUELLER’S PROSECUTORS SPELL OUT
THE ISSUE DIRECTLY, SAYING THAT
MANAFORT HAS BREACHED THE
COOPERATION AGREEMENT THAT HE
SIGNED WITH MUELLER’S
PROSECUTORS IN SEPTEMBER BY
REPEATEDLY LYING TO FEDERAL
INVESTIGATORS.
INVESTIGATORS. FROM TONIGHT’S FILING, QUOTE,
AFTER SIGNING THE PLEA
AGREEMENT, MANAFORT COMMITTED
FEDERAL CRIMES BY LYING TO THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
AND THE SPECIAL COUNSEL’S OFFICE
ON A VARIETY OF SUBJECT MATTERS.
MUELLER’S TEAM DO NOT SPELL OUT
IN DETAIL EXACTLY WHAT MANAFORT
LIED ABOUT, BUT NOTE THAT THEY
WILL AT SOME POINT FILE A
DETAILED SENTENCING SUBMISSION
TO THE PROBATION DEPARTMENT AND
THE COURT, SETTING FORTH THE
NATURE OF THE DEFENDANT’S CRIMES
AND LIES, SETTING FORTH THE
NATURE OF THE DEFENDANT’S LIES
AND CRIMES.
AND CRIMES. QUOTE, AS THE DEFENDANT HAS
BREACHED THE PLEA AGREEMENT,
THERE IS NO REASON TO DELAY HIS
SENTENCING HEREIN.
SENTENCING HEREIN. NOW THE FILING TONIGHT IS A
JOINT STATUS REPORT FILED BY
BOTH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL AND
MANAFORT’S ATTORNEYS.
MANAFORT’S ATTORNEYS. AS SUCH, IT ALSO LAYS OUT PAUL
MANAFORT’S SIDE OF THE STORY
WHEREIN HE DENIES THE LATEST
ALLEGATIONS AGAINST HIM.
QUOTE, AFTER SIGNING THE PLAN
AGREEMENT, MANAFORT MET WITH THE
GOVERNMENT ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS
AND ANSWERED THE GOVERNMENT’S
QUESTIONS.
QUESTIONS. MANAFORT HAS PROVIDE INFORMATION
TO THE GOVERNMENT IN AN EFFORT
TO LIVE UP TO HIS COOPERATION
OBLIGATIONS.
OBLIGATIONS. IT GOES ON.
"HE BELIEVES HE HAS PROVIDED
TRUTHFUL INFORMATION AND DOES
NOT AGREE WITH THE GOVERNMENT’S
CHARACTERIZATION OR THAT HE HAS
BREACHED THE AGREEMENT.
GIVEN THE CONFLICT IN THE
PARTIES’ POSITIONS, THERE IS NO
REASON TO DELAY THE SENTENCING
HEREIN, AND HE ASKS THE COURT TO
SET A SENTENCING DATE IN THIS
MATTER."
MATTER." PAUL MANAFORT HAS BEEN IN
SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IN A
VIRGINIA JAIL SINCE JUNE WHEN HE
WAS ACCUSED OF VIOLATING HIS
PROBATION BY ACTIVELY TAMPERING
WITH WITNESSES TO TRY THE GET
THEM TO SPIN HIS ACTIONS IN A
MORE POSITIVE LIGHT.
PAUL MANAFORT WAS ALREADY FACING
THE PROSPECT OF AT LEAST TEN
YEARS BEHIND BARS.
TONIGHT HE FACES THE PROSPECT OF
EACH MORE TIME FOR BREAKING HIS
COOPERATION AGREEMENT BY LYING
ON A VARIETY OF SUBJECT MATTERS.
MUELLER’S TEAM COULD ALSO REFILE
CHARGES ON COUNTS THEY
PREVIOUSLY AGREED TO DISMISS AS
PART OF THE PLEA DEAL.
NOW HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT
MUELLER’S PROSECUTORS DO REFILE
CHARGES AGAINST TRUMP’S FORMER
CAMPAIGN CHAIR?
CAMPAIGN CHAIR? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR PAUL
MANAFORT?
MANAFORT? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE
OTHER TRUMP CAMPAIGN OFFICIALS
WHO CONTINUE TO COOPERATE WITH
THE SPECIAL COUNSEL?
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR TRUMP?
WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL HIMSELF AT A
TIME WHEN HIS INVESTIGATION
APPEARS TO BE INCREASINGLY UNDER
THREAT.
THREAT. JOINING ME NOW, BARBARA McQUADE,
FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN,
AND DANIEL GOLDMAN, FORMER
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING WITH
US.
US. BARBARA, LET ME JUST START WITH
YOU.
YOU. THESE COOPERATION AGREEMENTS
REQUIRE MUCH MORE THAN ANSWERING
A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT THE MATTER
AT HAND.
AT HAND. THEY REQUIRE, IN THIS CASE
REQUIRED, PAUL MANAFORT TO
ANSWER ANY QUESTION ABOUT ANY
LEGAL WRONGDOING HE’S EVER BEEN
INVOLVED IN OR KNOWN OF.
>> YEAH, IT’S AN ALL OR NOTHING
PROPOSITION.
PROPOSITION. WHEN THE GOVERNMENT IS TALKING
WITH SOMEONE ABOUT COOPERATION,
THEY WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING
ABOUT THIS CASE.
THEY WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING
ABOUT THEIR OWN MISCONDUCT,
BECAUSE THEY ARE RECRUITING HIM
NOW TO BE ON THEIR TEAM.
THEY’RE GOING TO PUT HIM ON THE
STAND, ESSENTIALLY VOUCHING FOR
HIS TRUTHFULNESS, SPONSORING HIS
TESTIMONY AND ASKING A JURY TO
BELIEVE HIM.
BELIEVE HIM. AND THEY CAN ONLY DO THAT IF
THEY ARE CONVINCED THAT HE IS
TELLING THEM THE TRUTH.
THEY UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE
COMMIT CRIMES, BUT THIS IS THE
DEAL, AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT
THE STAKES ARE.
WHEN THERE IS A BREACH LIKE
THIS, IT REAL SLAY LOSE-LOSE
PROPOSITION.
PROPOSITION. PAUL MANAFORT IS NOW GOING TO
FACE MORE TIME THAN HE OTHERWISE
WOULD HAVE, AND NOW THE
GOVERNMENT HAS LOST A COOPERATOR
WHO HAD POTENTIAL VALUE TO THEM.
>> DANIEL, HE COULD FACE A LOT
MORE TIME.
MORE TIME. THIS GUY COULD NEVER SEE THE
OUTSIDE OF A JAIL NOW.
WHAT WOULD HAVE COMPELLED HIM
NOT TO COOPERATE?
HE ALREADY HAD TO GIVE UP HIS
PROPERTY.
PROPERTY. HE ALREADY WAS GOING TO GO TO
JAIL FOR SOME THINGS.
IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION HAD A LOT OF
EVIDENCE ON HIM.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IS BEHIND
THIS?
THIS? >> WELL, THERE IS A LOT OF
SPECULATION ALREADY THAT HE HAS
BEEN DANGLED A PARDON, OR HE IS
AFRAID OF SOME OF THE RUSSIANS
HE MAY HAVE INFORMATION ON.
WELL DON’T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE OF,
THAT WHICH I THINK IS VERY
IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT.
AND SECOND OF ALL, I THINK IT
FAILS TO UNDERSTAND HOW
SELF-INTERESTED AND IRRATIONAL
SOMEONE LIKE PAUL MANAFORT IS,
SOMEONE WHO HAS COMMITTED FRAUD
IN VARIOUS FORMS FOR SO MUCH OF
HIS LIFE.
HIS LIFE. I PROSECUTED WHITE COLLAR CASES,
AND I FREQUENTLY SAW PEOPLE LIKE
PAUL MANAFORT WHO WOULD
ESSENTIALLY TRY THEIR LAST HEIST
ON THE PROSECUTORS, AND TRY TO
VERY FREQUENTLY PROTECT HIMSELF
FROM FURTHER WRONGDOING.
AND YOU AND BARB JUST DISCUSSED
HOW YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY ADMIT
TO ADDITIONAL CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
IT VERY WELL COULD BE THAT PAUL
MANAFORT WAS UNWILLING TO ADMIT
TO ADDITIONAL CRIMES PERHAPS
RELATED TO THE CAMPAIGN AND TO
RUSSIA THAT WE KNOW WERE UNDER
INVESTIGATION AND THAT
ULTIMATELY BOB MUELLER JUST HAD
ENOUGH AND SAID IF YOU’RE NOT
GOING TO BE TRUTHFUL, YOU’RE NOT
GETTING A COOPERATION AGREEMENT.
AND HE IS NOW LOOKING AT TEN
YEARS IN D.C. PLUS PERHAPS
ANYWHERE FROM 11 TO 14 YEARS
WILL BE THE GUIDELINES IN THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA.
IT’S UNLIKELY THEY’LL BOTH RUN
ONE AFTER THE OTHER, BUT WE’RE
TALKING DOUBLE-DIGITS AMOUNT OF
YEARS IN JAIL.
>> BARBARA, HAVE YOU HAD A
CIRCUMSTANCE LIKE THIS WHERE
SOMEONE WHO YOU MADE A DEAL WITH
WENT AND LIED AND IS THERE
SOMETHING WE’RE MISSING HERE?
IS THERE SOME POTENTIAL UPSIDE
TO MANAFORT DOING THIS?
>> NO.
>> NO. IT DOES HAPPEN FROM TIME TO
TIME.
TIME. IT’S ACTUALLY PRETTY RARE.
USUALLY MOST OF THE TIME BY THE
TIME SOMEONE HAS SAT DOWN,
ENTERED A GUILTY PLEA, THEY
UNDERSTAND THAT THE BEST THEY
CAN DO FOR THEMSELVES IS TO
COOPERATE FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY
SO THAT THEY CAN GET THAT MOTION
AND HAVE A REDUCED SENTENCE.
AND A GOOD LAWYER WILL SIT DOWN
WITH THEIR CLIENT AND EXPLAIN
THAT TO THEM.
ON RARE OCCASION, THERE ARE
DEFENDANTS WHO WILL CONTINUE TO
LIE, OFTENTIMES MINIMIZING THEIR
OWN ROLE.
OWN ROLE. IT SOUNDS LIKE THAT’S WHAT
HAPPENED WITH GEORGE
PAPADOPOULOS, AND AT SOME POINT
THE GOVERNMENT JUST TEARS UP THE
PLEA AGREEMENT AND SAYS WE’RE
DONE BECAUSE WE CAN’T SPONSOR
YOU.
YOU. IF IT’S A SLIGHT LIE, EVEN
THAT’S IS PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE IT
HAS TO BE REPORTED TO THE JUDGE
AND THE DEFENSE SO IT CAN BE
USED AS IMPEACHMENT MATERIAL.
AT SOME POINT YOU GET TO THE
POINT WHERE I JUST CAN’T WORK
WITH THIS PERSON.
I CAN’T TRUST HIM AND WE’RE
DONE.
DONE. IT’S A LOSE-LOSE.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT WOULD
PREFER TO HAVE HIS COOPERATION,
BUT THEY CAN ONLY DO THAT IF
THEY BELIEVE HE IS BEING
TRUTHFUL.
TRUTHFUL. >> SO DANIEL, LET’S GO TO 50,000
FEET HERE.
FEET HERE. WE’VE HEARD THAT PAPADOPOULOS
HAS SIGNED INTO JAIL BECAUSE HE
DIDN’T COOPERATE IN THE WAY THAT
WAS MEANINGFUL.
WAS MEANINGFUL. WE UNDERSTOOD THAT MANAFORT’S
COOPERATION WAS IN CONCERT WITH
OTHERS.
OTHERS. WE’RE WAITING TO SEE A SENTENCE
FILING FROM THE GOVERNMENT ON
MICHAEL FLYNN.
MICHAEL FLYNN. IS THERE A RIM EFFECT TO THIS?
>> I THINK THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT EFFECT FOR
GOVERNMENT BECAUSE OF PAUL
MANAFORT’S CENTRAL POSITION IN
THE CAMPAIGN.
THE CAMPAIGN. HE WAS THE CAMPAIGN MANAGER.
HE WAS IN THAT JUNE 2016 TRUMP
TOWER MEETING.
TOWER MEETING. HE WAS ACTUALLY OVERSEEING THE
CONVENTION FOR THE PARTY AND FOR
THE CAMPAIGN, AND YOU’LL RECALL
THAT THE PARTY PLATFORM CHANGED
IN A RUSSIA-FRIENDLY WAY.
IT FELT TO MANY, INCLUDING ME,
LIKE PAUL MANAFORT WOULD HELP
BOB MUELLER GET TO THE BOTTOM OF
WHATEVER HAPPENED.
WHATEVER HAPPENED. AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY
RELEVANT FOR PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS
DIDN’T USE E-MAIL, SUCH AS THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. AND THAT IF HE IS THE CAMPAIGN
MANAGER, AND HE HAS ALL THESE
CONTACTS AND RELATIONSHIPS WITH
RUSSIA, THAT IF SOMEONE’S --
DOESN’T HAVE A PAPER TRAIL, YOU
NEED A COOPERATING WITNESS TO
KNOW WHAT CONVERSATIONS WENT ON.
AND I THINK THIS IS A REAL BLOW
TO THE SPECIAL COUNSEL NOT TO BE
ABLE TO GET THAT INFORMATION AND
USE IT THROUGH PAUL MANAFORT,
BECAUSE NOW IT CAN’T BE USED.
YOU NEED TO BE A WITNESS IN
ORDER TO BE ABLE FOR THE
PROSECUTOR TO USE THE
INFORMATION, EVEN IF HE GAVE
SOME INFORMATION THAT WAS
TRUTHFUL, THEY CANNOT RELY ON
HIM TO TESTIFY TO THAT
INFORMATION.
INFORMATION. SO THEY HAVE TO FIND IT
ELSEWHERE.
ELSEWHERE. >> WE HAVE HEARD, HOWEVER,
TODAY, BARBARA, THAT ROGER STONE
ASSOCIATE JEROME CORSI, WHO IS A
STRANGE CHARACTER, THE GUY
BEHIND THE BIRTHER, HE WAS DUE
TO CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW.
HE DIDN’T GET OUT OF HIS CAR AND
DIDN’T DO IT.
NOW WE HAVE HEARD THAT HE HAS
TURNED DOWN A PLEA DEAL FROM
ROBERT MUELLER.
ROBERT MUELLER. DO YOU MAKE ANYTHING OF THIS?
>> YOU KNOW, IT’S HARD TO KNOW
EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON.
WHAT HE HAS SAID PUBLICLY IS HE
REFUSED TO PLEAD GUILTY TO
PERJURY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED
PERJURY CHARGE WAS BASED ON HIS
FAILURE TO REMEMBER SOMETHING.
THAT DOES NOT RING TRUE TO ME.
PERNG
PERNG PERJURY IS CHARGED ONLY WHEN YOU
CAN PROVE THE CENTRAL ELEMENTS
THAT THE PERSON TESTIFIED UNDER
OATH, THAT THEY THEN AND THERE
KNEW WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS
FALSE, AND IT WAS ABOUT A
MATERIAL FACT.
MATERIAL FACT. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS
IMPORTANT.
IMPORTANT. IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS
SLIPPED YOUR MEMORY, YOU CAN’T
RECALL.
RECALL. I DON’T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAS
HAPPENED THERE.
HAPPENED THERE. IT SEEMS MORE LIKELY THAT
SOMEONE HAS DECIDED I CAN’T DO
TIME.
TIME. WHEN YOU AGREE TO PLEAD GUILTY,
YOU HAVE TO OWN YOUR CRIMES, AND
YOU MAY FACE CRIMINAL EXPOSURE,
INCLUDING SENTENCING BEFORE A
JUDGE.
JUDGE. AND SO OFTEN THE STICKING POINT
IS THE PERSON WANTS A PROMISE OF
PROBATION OR SOME OTHER
SWEETHEART DEAL THAT THE
PROSECUTION JUST ISN’T WILLING
TO PROMISE.
TO PROMISE. >> ALL RIGHT.
THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR YOUR
ANALYSIS TONIGHT.
ANALYSIS TONIGHT. BARBARA McQUADE, FORMER U.S.
ATTORNEY FOR THE EASTERN
DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN.
DONALD GOLDMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT
ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TONIGHT.
>> THANKS, AL.
>>> AN UPDATE ON A LEGAL STORY
WE’RE FOLLOWING.
WE’RE FOLLOWING. IN JUNE FILED A LAWSUIT THAT
ENSNARED NOT JUST THE PRESIDENT,
BUT ALSO HIS CHILDREN WHO
ALLEGEDLY USED THE TRUMP
FOUNDATION TO PROP UP TRUMP’S
PRESIDENTIAL BID AND SETTLE
BUSINESS DISPUTES.
BUSINESS DISPUTES. IT’S BEEN AN OPEN QUESTION
WHETHER THIS CASE COULD GO
FORWARD.
FORWARD. TRUMP’S LAWYERS HAD QUESTIONED
WHETHER A SITTING PRESIDENT
COULD FACE A CIVIL LAWSUIT.
WELL, NOW CONSIDER THAT MATTER
SETTLED.
SETTLED. OVER THAT WEEKEND, A NEW YORK
JUDGE RULED THAT A LAWSUIT
AGAINST THE PRESIDENT’S
CHARITABLE FOUNDATION CAN
PROCEED.
PROCEED. THE JUDGE RULED IN NO UNCERTAIN
TERMS, QUOTE, I FIND I HAVE