We're talking about criminal justice with Derrick Johnson
and also Gina Clayton-Johnson. Nice to see you both.
Thank you for talking with me. Wow, we've got a lot to cover
because we're at a moment of transition in this country.
And I'm curious, what do you think would further criminal justice reform?
I'd like to say that incidents result in momentary change,
but infrastructure results in lasting change.
And what we have seen is actually that.
There was coordinated infrastructure that was able to produce
an opportunity for people to organize.
What we have now is a situation of sustainable victory.
And that is because of the infrastructure,
that black organizing, that organizing that has been--
been led by formerly incarcerated people,
directly impacted people, women, trans communities, indigenous communities
have created to create the conditions of success.
And you guys are well aware of this debate, you know, defund the police.
When I would interview people, they would say to me, "Oh, that sounds so scary."
Other people would say, "Oh, I think that means not giving funds for things
that should be going to social services,
like police officers interacting with people who are mentally ill."
So there's a kind of wide spectrum of understanding some of this messaging.
How do you build a coalition?
So when we use phrases like "defund the police,"
that's not about building coalitions
because sometimes people outside our community
don't know how to interpret it.
So we have to look at all these tools that's in front of us
to get to the question of power, however we define power in our particular community.
So I run an organization in California called Essie Justice Group,
and we're a loving and powerful community of women
who have lost loved ones to mass incarceration.
They are the ones who are seeing firsthand
the ways in which our systems and our budgetary priorities
have really failed to prioritize the health and safety
and wholeness of our communities and our people.
What I think needs to be clear is that their values are our values, right?
That, like, in the broadest sense of the word, "our."
That we all want the same thing.
Then do you think, Derrick, that using that phrase
"defund the police" was a mistake?
Because there are certainly, as you know well,
Democrats who said, "Hey, I narrowly, you know,
squeaked by in my election because defund the police
was a phrase that my constituents didn't read.
They read it as there should be no police in your neighborhood."
Status quo is a powerful gravitational pull for individuals.
Change is something that a majority of the population have never run to.
When you look at change in this nation,
there's always the few leading the majority.
It's never the majority leading the few.
So it's common upon people like Gina
and many other people across the landscape
to be comfortable with being the leading guard for the change,
and over time, people will follow.
I mean, I just-- Derrick, I appreciate you.
That was-- it was just so right on.
And you know, sometimes it's just the encouragement
that you need to hear at times just to feel like
despite the fact that we are working in different places, in different states,
we are all part of the same movement.
I think that one of the things that I really appreciated this year
was having the opportunity to write together
and to actually publish about a piece of federal legislation
that we both really believe in called the Breathe Act.
And the Breathe Act is one of those solutions
that lays out a plan for safety
and for justice with-- in very concrete terms.
Universal basic income, universal health care,
all of the things that we know work to actually keep our community safe
and whole and healthy and free.
Those are the things that are-- that exist in this-- in this bill
that comes directly from the movement for black lives.
And so I think that, you know, we need to really take a step back
and look at the substance of what it is
that our elected leaders, as Derrick so well pointed out,
are really really pushing for.
What do you guys think are the priorities?
I mean, when I look at this list, right,
you could say, "Okay. End mandatory minimums
or end private prisons or restore voting rights."
I grew up in the city of Detroit.
I was pulled over by the same two officers every day for seven days.
It was less than 18 months later on my block,
there was a person killed by these two police officers
because they were standing on a corner, Malice Green,
on 23rd and Warren Avenue.
The fact that individuals can commit crimes against this individuals
and hide behind the badge is unconscionable.
Now the opportunity in front of us is to insure those policy makers
stay consistent with the value proposition that black lives matter.
We begin to see systemic public policy changes
to address decade, century-long structural racism.
So you think change comes from the top down or the bottom up,
or does change come sort of both directions and meets in the middle somewhere?
Who do you think is paying the bail agents?
Who's paying-- who's paying to get people out?
It's all women, it's all mothers who are getting those phone calls.
It's grandmothers, it's aunties, it's, you know,
we're the ones scraping up the money.
It is women who are doing that work every single day
and can tell you very quickly and clearly, like,
what they need is some reminders, an address.
If they don't have an address, you know, someone to wellness check,
to go check on them, some resources.
And these were all the solutions that our community was coming up with.
And that is straight-- that is an example of, like, the bottom up solution.
Not just stories, but solutions being driven from the bottom up.
As well as, of course, the movement.
What advice would you each give about how an individual
can help impact the system? Derrick, I'll start with you,
and then, Gina, I'll have you wrap up for us. Derrick?
Well, when you look at the dominant culture,
our problems are often times their solution.
So we have to right size how we see one another in community
and as neighbors so one would not create a solution
that's causing a community a problem.
Identify those individuals like district attorneys
if you have one who are pushing for restorative justice,
and own your agency an appreciate that you are important to this conversation
around system reform and the elimination of mass incarceration.
The thing that we have to confront
is isolation.
That we actually have not just a pandemic now,
but an entire infrastructure at work.
Mass incarceration is a perfect example of this, right?
To separate individuals from their communities
by distance and bars and concrete,
stigma, marginalization, and so forth.
To stay connected because that is our biggest power
against kind of all of the debilitating
and the feeling of hopelessness and overwhelm
that we can often feel when looking at kind of the world problem.
So, stay connected, get organized,
connect to your ancestors, connect to your people,
and know that-- that big change is possible when we--
when we embark on it together.