FORMER CHIEF SPOKESMAN FOR THE JUSTICE DEBT AND MSNBC SECURITY
AND JUSTICE ANALYST.
WE LAID OUT A BUNCH OF
POTENTIAL -- I HAVE TO REMIND
EVERYONE, POTENTIAL VIOLATIONS.
FROM WHAT YOU’VE READ ABOUT THE
SUBPOENA, WHERE DO YOU SEE THE
FOCUS OF THIS INVESTIGATION?
>> I THINK IT COULD BE AN
INCREDIBLY BIG DEAL AND TOM DOES
A REALLY GOOD JOB OF LAYING OUT
THE POINT THAT THE INVESTIGATION
IS AT.
IS AT. THIS IS EARLY DAYS.
THEY’RE GATHERING INFORMATION.
THEY HAVE A BASIS FOR BELIEVING
CRIMES HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.
THEY’LL TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
COMES BACK AND THEN ASSESS
WHETHER THEY SHOULD MOVE
FORWARD.
FORWARD. WE ALREADY KNOW AN IMPORTANT
DETAIL ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION
FROM PATTON’S PLEA IN THE
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.
HE ACKNOWLEDGED HE ARRANGED FOR
DONATIONS FROM UKRAINIAN AND A
RUSSIAN TO THE INAUGURAL
COMMITTEE KNOWING THAT THIS WAS
ILLEGAL.
ILLEGAL. AND IT’S VERY UNLIKELY THAT HE
KEPT THAT KNOWLEDGE TO HIMSELF
SINCE HE FILTERED AT LEAST ONE
OF THESE TRANSACTIONS THROUGH A
CYPRIOT BANK.
CYPRIOT BANK. THERE WILL BE SOMEBODY ON THAT
SIDE WHO WOULD BE AWARE OF THE
ILLEGALITY AS WELL.
>> A BANK IN CYPRUS.
REMEMBER WHO’S CLOSELY TIED,
WILBUR ROSS.
WILBUR ROSS. MATT, HOW HARD IS IT TO PROVE A
QUID PRO QUO?
IN THIS CASE, SOMEBODY GETTING
ACCESS FOR A SPECIFIC REASON
BECAUSE THEY MADE A DONATION?
I MEAN, HISTORICALLY DON’T LOTS
OF RICH AND INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE
GO TO THINGS LIKE THE
INAUGURATION AND GIVE A LOT OF
MONEY TO GO?
>> PROVING A QUID PRO QUO IS ONE
OF THE HARDEST THINGS.
JUST BUYING ACCESS IS OF ITSELF
NOT ILLEGAL.
NOT ILLEGAL. PEOPLE CAN BUY ACCESS TO
POLITICIANS ALL THE TIME.
WHAT YOU CAN’T BUY IS AN
OFFICIAL ACTION IN RETURN.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE
PROSECUTORS SEEM TO BE PROBING
HERE, OBVIOUSLY THEY’RE LOOKING
AT HOW THE MONEY CAME IN,
WHETHER THERE WAS ILLEGAL
FOREIGN MONEY THAT CAME INTO THE
INAUGURAL COMMITTEE.
INAUGURAL COMMITTEE. AND THEY SEEM TO BE LOOKING AT
HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT.
IT’S ILLEGAL TO NOT PROPERLY
DISCLOSE MONEY.
DISCLOSE MONEY. IN TERMS OF FOREIGN DONATIONS,
THE FIRST ORDER OF QUESTION I
THINK FOR PROSECUTORS IS DID ANY
FOREIGN MONEY ILLEGALLY MAKE IT
INTO THE INAUGURAL COMMITTEE.
THE SECOND QUESTION IS, IF SO,
WHAT WERE THOSE DONORS TRYING TO
BUY.
BUY. WERE THEY TRYING TO BUY ACCESS
TO THE TRUMP TEAM OR TRYING TO
BUY POLICY DECISIONS FROM THE
NEW ADMINISTRATION AND IF SO
WERE THEY SUCCESSFUL?
AT SOME LEVEL, THAT’S BEEN THE
UNDERLYING QUESTION OF ALL THE
PROBES INTO TRUMP FROM THE
BEGINNING WHICH IS DID PEOPLE
GET ANYTHING EXCHANGED FOR
MONEY, FOR FAVORS, FOR OTHER
THINGS THEY SENT INTO THE TRUMP
ORGANIZATION, INTO THE TRUMP
CAMPAIGN.
CAMPAIGN. >> THIS INAUGURATION WAS FAR
MORE EXPENSIVE THAN ANY
INAUGURATION IN HISTORY.
MORE THAN OBAMA’S IN 2009, MORE
THAN BUSH’S IN 2005.
I WANT TO HEAR WHAT BUSH’S
COMMITTEE CHAIR SAID WHEN HE
HEARD HOW MUCH MONEY TRUMP
SPENT.
SPENT. >> SO THEY HAD A THIRD OF THE
STAFL
STAFL STAFF AND A QUARTER OF THE
EVENTS AND THEY RAISED, WHAT, AT
LEAST TWICE AS MUCH AS WE DID?
SO THERE’S THE OBVIOUS QUESTION
WHERE DID IT GO.
I DON’T KNOW.
>> NO IDEAS?
>> NO IDEAS.
>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
>> SO I THINK MATT AND JOYCE
HAVE DONE A TERRIFIC JOB LAYING
OUT WHAT POTENTIAL CRIMES COULD
BE LOOKED AT HERE.
ANOTHER THING THEY COULD FACE IS
WAS THERE PROPER ACCOUNTING
BEING DONE WITH RESPECT TO THIS
COMMITTEE.
COMMITTEE. AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS YOU
LOOK AT, AS HE JUST SAID IN THAT
SOUND, WAS HEY, YOU’VE GOT, YOU
KNOW, THIS WAS A SCALED DOWN
INAUGURATION.
INAUGURATION. I REMEMBER TALKING ABOUT THAT
LEADING UP TO IT.
YOU HAVE MASSIVE EXPENDITURES.
WHAT DID THIS ALL GO TO?
RICK GATES SAID AT THE PAUL
MANAFORT TRIAL THAT HE HAD SOME
FINANCIAL IMPROPRIETIES AS FAR
AS HOW HE ACCOUNTED FOR CERTAIN
THINGS HE SPENT WITH THE
INAUGURAL COMMITTEE.
INAUGURAL COMMITTEE. AS WE KNOW, HE’S BEEN
COOPERATING AND CONTINUES TO
COOPERATE ACCORDING TO COURT
DOCUMENTS.
DOCUMENTS. WHAT THINGS DOES RICK GATES KNOW
ABOUT AS FAR AS HOW THINGS WERE
SPENT AND HOW THINGS MAY HAVE
ACCOUNTED FOR?
ACCOUNTED FOR? WE HAVE THIS GULF, AS YOU
ACCURATELY AND CLEARLY LAID OUT,
OF 100 PLUS MILLION DOLLARS IN
EXPENDITURE
EXPENDITURE EXPENDITURES.
EXPENDITURES. THAT’S A SIGNIFICANT GAP THERE
AS FAR AS WHERE DID THAT MONEY
GO AND WHAT COULD THAT HAVE GONE
TO.
TO. I THINK THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS
NOT ONLY ON MONEY COMING IN BUT
PERHAPS MONEY GOING OUT.
WHERE DID IT GO?
HOW WASES IT ACCOUNT IT ACCOUNTE
OBVIOUSLY HERE WE MIGHT BE IN A
SITUATION WHERE EITHER THEY’RE
GOING TO ASK FOR OR MAYBE THEY
ALREADY HAVE RECEIVED THE BANK
RECORDS FOR THIS COMMITTEE.
ALSO THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE
CHAIRMAN OF THIS I THINK RAISES
SOME INTERESTING QUESTIONS AS
WELL.
WELL. I’VE NOT SEEN WHERE HE’S
PUBLICLY COMMENTED ON THIS.
>> I DON’T THINK HE HAS.
JOYCE, TOM HITS ON FASCINATING
POINTS.
POINTS. KEY PLAYERS IN THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION WHO WERE TIED INTO
THIS.
THIS. RICK GATES WAS PART OF THE
PLANNING TEAM FOR THE
INAUGURATION.
INAUGURATION. MICHAEL COHEN ACTUALLY HAD THE
INFORMATION THAT GOT THIS WHOLE
THING STARTED.
THING STARTED. >> IT’S FASCINATING WE’RE SEEING
THIS CASE PROSECUTORED NOT BY
MUELLER AS PART OF SPECIAL
COUNSEL’S OFFICE BUT
INDEPENDENTLY BY THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
DEMONSTRATES THAT MUELLER IS
EXERCISING GREAT RESTRAINT.
HIS MANDATE WAS TO LOOK AT
CONNECTIVITY BETWEEN THE
CAMPAIGN AND RUSSIA AND WHETHER
THAT WAS AN EFFORT TO INFLUENCE
THE ELECTION.
THE ELECTION. BUT ALSO ANYTHING HE DEVELOPED
AS A RESULT OF THAT
INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. PRIOR INDEPENDENT COUNSELS MIGHT
HAVE HELD ON TO THIS AND KEPT
GOING FOR YEARS.
BUT NOT MUELLER.
THEY’LL HAVE ACCESS THOUGH TO
ALL OF HIS COOPERATORS AND
INFORMATION THEY’VE DEVELOPED.
IN THIS SUBPOENA, WE NOTE THAT
PROSECUTORS ARE ALSO LOOKING FOR
EVIDENCE OF MONEY LAUNDERING,
WHICH I THINK IS THE MOST
INTERESTING PIECE WE’VE GOT
HERE.
HERE. IS THAT MONEY LAUNDERING BY
RUSSIAN OR IUKRAINIAN OLIGARCHS
SENDING MONEY INTO THE
INAUGURATION FUND OR SOMETHING
ELSE, BUT THAT’S THE PIECE TO
LOOK FOR.
LOOK FOR. >> I WANT TO PLAY WHAT CHRIS
CHRISTIE SAID ABOUT THIS LAST
NIGHT.
NIGHT. >> I’VE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT WAS
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM FOR TWO
REASONS.
REASONS. ONE BECAUSE THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT HAS NO RESTRICTIONS ON
THEIR PURVIEW.
THEIR PURVIEW. BOB MUELLER HAS A TASK.
IT’S RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE AND
POTENTIAL COLLUSION.
POTENTIAL COLLUSION. SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK IS
WHATEVER THE HECK YOU WANT.
>> PICK YOUR POISON, I DON’T
KNOW IF YOU’RE A "STAR WARS" FAN
BUT IT’S LIKE DECIDEING WHETHER
TO FIGHT THE DEATH STAR OR THE
DEATH STAR BASE.
BOTH CAN BLOW UP YOUR PLANET.
I’M NOT SURE I’D WANT EITHER
ONE.
ONE. THE INVESTIGATION MAKES CLEAR
HOW MUCH EXPOSURE THE PRESIDENT
HAD ON ALL FRONTS.
THIS WASN’T AN INVESTIGATION
THAT WAS REFERRED DIRECTLY FROM
PAUL MUELLER BUT IN SOME WAYS
IT’S HIS GRANDCHILD.
THAT INVESTIGATION PRODUCED THIS
NEW INFORMATION AND I THINK THE
PROBLEM IS -- JOYCE WAS ALLUDEIN
TO.
TO. NOW THE PRESIDENT HAS EXPOSURE
ACROSS HIS CAMPAIGN, HIS WHITE
HOUSE COMMITTEE, HIS WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. YOU HAVE WITNESSES WHO CAN BE --
WHO ARE TURNED IN ONE
INVESTIGATION, RICK GATES IS THE
PERFECT EXAMPLE, WHO CAN NOW BE
USED IN ANOTHER.
HIKE MICHAEL COHEN.
WHEN YOU HAVE EXPOSURE ON SO
MANY FRONTS, YOU HAVE TO WIN ON
ALL OF THEM AND IT’S DIFFICULT
IF YOU’RE THE PRESIDENT.
>> LAST POINT?
>> TWO QUICK POINTS.
ONE, IT’S INTERESTING TO ME, A
LOT OF PEOPLE RAISED CONCERNS
THAT A TRUMP PICKED U.S.
ATTORNEY WOULD NOT INVESTIGATE
PEOPLE CLOSE TO TRUMP OR PEOPLE
INVOLVED WITH TRUMP.
YET YOU HAVE THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF NEW YORK BRINGING A
VERY SUBSTANTIAL CASE.
YOU HAVE THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT
PROSECUTORIAL OFFICE WHO HAS HAD
NO PROBLEM GOING AFTER ALSO NOW
HIS INAUGURAL COMMITTEE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE RAISED QUESTIONS
ABOUT THAT.
ABOUT THAT. I THINK WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT IT,
WE SEE THAT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT HERE CONTINUES TO BE
INDEPENDENT, AT LEAST OUTSIDE OF
AREAS OF WASHINGTON, D.C. AND
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OFFICE.
>> THANK YOU, ALL.
MASSIVELY IMPORTANT
MASSIVELY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.