This is CNN breaking news.
This breaking news,
a judge has just ordered former Vice
President Mike Pence to testify
before a federal grand jury.
That is related to the special counsel's
January six investigation.
Let's get straight to our reporter,
CNN's Katelyn Polantz.
Katelyn, what more do we know
Well, I'm just learning from a source
that Mike
Pence, the former vice
president, does have to testify
to the grand
jury investigating
January six
that federal grand jury
in Washington, D.C.
not only does he have to testify,
but he will have to testify
about conversations
he had with Donald Trump himself.
Leading up to January six.
So that crucial piece of information
that the Justice Department has sought
and that Pence has sort of divulged
in his public speeches
and in his book previously,
but that the grand jury
has not heard about yet
the conversations before January six,
when Donald Trump
and Mike Pence were on the phone,
one on one.
And Donald Trump
apparently was berating him,
calling him names,
that sort of thing
in this criminal investigation.
He is going to have to share that.
Now, we have confirmed two,
that this ruling came down yesterday
in the D.C.
district court from the new chief judge,
Jeff Boasberg.
He also shot down
Donald Trump's arguments
that the conversation
should be protected
because of presidential secrecy,
executive privilege.
So Trump lost in this court fight.
And Pence
does have to testify
about some of these things.
But Pence also
got a little bit of a win himself
in that this judge decided that
Mike Pence, as the vice
president, should have some protection
about his around his work on January six
when he says
he was operating as somebody
as part of Congress,
as the vice president.
The presiding officer over the Senate.
So he doesn't necessarily
have to testify
about what happened on January
six itself.
But those crucial questions
about what happened
before that date
and what happened between him and Trump.
This judge says he is going to have
to share that.
Now, of course, he could appeal,
but this is a major ruling
in the special counsel investigation.
Caitlin,
how much of a victory
is this for Jack Smith, the
special counsel?
It's another victory for special counsel.
Jack Smith.
He has gotten
he has locked up testimony from Mike
Pence's top aides.
He has gotten many,
many rulings in his favor
where Donald Trump
has tried to block answers before this
grand jury.
I mean, this is a really crucial one
because in a lot of ways,
Mike Pence is
one of the ultimate victims
on January six.
And so what his interactions
were with Trump
could be quite important to
a criminal case
if that is what the grand jury
is investigating. Right now.
So, Alex, it is quite serious.
It also is quite serious
that the courts are diving
into this question of
what is the vice president?
Does he get the protections of Congress?
And it looks like there is
a ruling there.
We'll have to see if the appeals court
firms up
any of the law around that, though.
Alex,
you have that special counsel,
of course,
also carrying out
a simultaneous investigation
on the classified documents
proceeding quietly.
But but quickly, it seems,
and as Kaitlan just noted,
has had a series of victories of late.
I call it Caitlin Points.
Terrific reporting.
We'll get back to you. Thank you so much.
With me now is
CNN anchor and
senior legal analyst Laura Coates.
And CNN
senior political analyst Gloria Borger.
Laura, I want to go to you first.
Your reaction to this ruling?
I mean, it's extraordinary.
We have the former vice president
in states
having to testify
in a grand
jury against the person
that he served under, the former
president, Donald Trump.
Remember, he has been thinking
that he might have to do this
for quite some time.
Let's delineate two things here, Alex.
On the one hand, it's his role
as the president of the Senate
and the vice president.
So what he's talking about on the floor
as a member of the Senate.
So to speak, in that capacity
is not part of this inquiry.
What is relevant
here is what Trump may have said to him
prior to January six.
Did he acknowledge that
he'd lost the election?
Did he seek to try
to block certification?
What specifically did he say?
Was there anything threatening?
What were the terms
that he wanted him to abide by?
What steps were actually taken
to try to disrupt
the peaceful transit
transfer of power
in our American democracy?
All of this extremely relevant
and yet another defeat.
Remember, you've got former attorneys
and current attorneys of Trump
who have been asked to testify
in the grand jury, a federal grand jury.
Now, you've got somebody
who was the second in command
who, of course, was threatened
on January 6th,
who was a bit of a hero
for so many on that day
for standing true.
Now having to testify
about things
that the president said to him.
This is an extraordinary moment
in American history.
And Gloria
Pence is at an interesting position.
He was subpoenaed.
He defied the subpoena.
He has at the same time, been critical
of President Donald Trump and
his actions around January six.
Pence, of course, was in the Capitol.
So what was the Pence thinking here
and not in resisting having to testify
Well, in conversations that I've had,
I think that the
the people who are close to Pence
sort of assumed at some point
he would have to testify about something.
And as Caitlin was saying earlier,
he might not have to testify
when he was in the Senate.
But these conversations,
you know, between Donald Trump
and Mike Pence
before January
six are very important
because what they're trying to find out
is any instances
in which Donald Trump
may have acted corruptly,
whether he spoke with Mike Pence
about trying to overturn
the election, for example, and his lawyer
was saying
whether he actually admitted
to his vice president at any point
that he knew that
he had lost the election.
And, you know, in Mike Pence's book,
he wrote about a private lunch
13 days after the election
in which he told Donald Trump
that he should just accept defeat
and go on
and think about perhaps running again.
I think they're going to want
to flesh that out about
whether Donald Trump actually
indicated to him that he knew
that he had been defeated.
So this is very, very important.
When you talk about the insurrection
and how they might want to build the case
against the former president
and whether he incited an insurrection,
knowing full
well that he had lost an election.
And Laura, this does come on the
heels of this judge
also ordering
other top aides,
including Chief of Staff Mark
Meadows, to testify
in this very same case.
Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I think there's a sense
that the classified documents
investigation is nearing its end.
While Jack
Smith's other investigation
into January six
might not be as far along,
but what does this tell us about
where this investigation stands?
Well, you can imagine almost the idea
of a boa constrictor
going around its particular victim
because it's tightening around
and the former
president of the United States.
We we're almost color
coding the various investigations
surrounding Donald Trump
at this point in time.
And now you have the loss of privilege
to the executive privilege level.
The attorney client privilege
has now been
pierced in a variety of ways.
And then you got this idea
of a probably more clear
cut case about the classified documents
it's a finite universe.
You know,
when they were supposed to be
handed over,
you know, that they were not handed over.
He has admitted to not wanting to do so.
And it's provided
some just to vacation in his mind
that is not really viable
as to why he can retain them.
That's a little bit more open and shut
if you handed him over
or you did not,
either you had your attorney
do something nefarious or you did not.
The January 61, as we all know,
is a much more comprehensive
and complex case to look at.
It involves
whether or not
he gave a virtual code red.
Was there a conspiracy?
Was there a seditious action
by a former president
of the United States at the time
he was the president.
And so it would make sense
if the Jack Smith special counsel
is to essentially
complete one investigation
that's far less complex
and then continue to
build on the next one.