Umu: A&Ring is a job in the music industry that not too many people are familiar with.
This video covers our conversation with Michelle Cho, who is a person of many talents and a balancer of many different jobs.
But most importantly has been an A&R in the k-pop music industry for the past seven years.
Michelle: Hi! My name is Michelle Cho. I also work as the name Singing Beetle.
So I am currently a songwriter and I run a small boutique publishing company that represents writers in and outside of Korea in the k-pop industry .
I've also started my career in the music industry as an international A&R at SM Entertainment.
And I worked there for about three years.
After I left I started my own company with services like freelance A&R publishing and some producing aspect by putting up songwriting camps for labels and some songwriters.
U: Wow yeah. You've seem to have lots and lots of skills that you're able to balance with many different jobs.
M: (softly) No I get help. People around me are pretty kind. U: Let's start this video with the basics.
What is an A&R and what role do they have in the k-pop industry?
M: A&R is a short name for artists and repertoire. These are the people who are in charge of the direction of music of an artist.
So A&Rs will talk with the artist or with the labels to see which kind of musical style, genre, or even the lyrical directions that the artist will take.
And based on those discussions A&Rs will hunt for great songs. Their job is to put it simply is to find the hit song that suits the artist.
A&Rs will start the hunt, will also be in charge--especially in the k-pop industry--will be in charge of making sure that the whole album is produced at a good quality.
So that they will make sure they find the right engineers, right recording studios, right mixing engineers also make sure that all the mix that they get is good.
And they're the ones who will be communicating with the engineers about the artist's requests when it comes to the mix or about the direction of the producer on their label.
Or even like their own opinion about how a mix should be revised sometimes, or whether a mix is good, or sometimes give a direction beforehand.
Like "we want this and this and that" so that the engineers can work off of that kind of comments that A&R's give.
U: Do they ever sit in the studio while the producers are writing?
M: Oh I think it differs from label to label.
But I've noticed that more and more A&Rs started to participate in the sessions.
So in the past I guess songwriting camps was something that wasn't common in the k-pop industry.
SM used to be one of the pioneers who started that kind of practice.
And even back then my job as an international A&R was
solely to deal with that those kind of creative processes so that we deliver what the artists and A&Rs needed.
But these days I've noticed that as I do more sessions and some A&Rs actually bring in their artist into the session and stay.
And sometimes even give comments like "oh we think that for this artist that maybe you want to change this section for blah blah blah",
or maybe "we want you to add this kind of ad-lib so that we can show this member's one aspect"
Or even during the recording session they actually sit through the whole session
and make sure that everything is in align with what they want and need.
U: Wow. And do they ever play with the order of songs on an album or is that someone else's job?
M: So they will all discuss together
to see like how the order of the songs in the album should be made \
to fit the concept, or sometimes they would like you know have a story that they want to tell throughout the album
right? To make sure that they're all aligned.
Yeah I think they do have a say in how songs are curated for the listeners. Umu: Right
U: Have you ever sat in on one of those sessions
and been able to talk about what story you want or the energy rise and fall?
M: Especially with this artist that I'm working with, Henry,
so we invited basically everyone in the company to actively discuss what kind of direction
not only musically but also visually that he should take.
And then what kind of message that we want to convey through his music and through his lyrics.
And also because Henry writes himself that like I arrange-
would arrange some sessions for him with the writers and producers
that I think will be good for him--like that would be a good pair--so that we actually come up with some cool songs.
U: You mentioned that as an international job for SM Entertainment
it's different than the regular A&R? What were the differences for those two jobs?
M: international A&Rs are pretty much in charge of managing international writers, so writers outside of Korea.
And regular A&Rs will have each artist assigned to them
so that they specifically work for their art- that artist and that direction.
International A&Rs will based on the discussions and based on the communications that we have
with the regular A&Rs, will draw songwriting camps:
Which people to invite, and how we're going to run sessions,
how are going to pair up writers doing a camp to create ideal results
so that regular A&Rs would have the songs that they like to pick for the album.
I would say international A&Rs, although we are categorized as A&R
we definitely participate in the process of choosing songs
and we also have a say in if we really believed in the song that we could actually push for it.
But also we have this aspect of participating in a actual creative process of a song
a little more which I ended up liking a lot.
And then regular A&Rs will be the ones who like pick up those veggies
from the market to make a great salad, you know? (salad=album, vegetables=songs)
So we'll be the ones who farm the great vegetables (fresh ones)
so that they get fresh ingredients for the salad and then
they will pick what kind of veggies that they buy to make...I don't know great salad?
U: Yes! M: If we were to compare music to a salad...
U: Perfect explanation.
If you were chosen to be a regular A&R instead of an international A&R way back then
which group would would you have hoped to been assigned to?
M: I did apply to both positions.
I personally really liked the music of SHINee.
U: Yes! M: I guess that you like it too!
Everyone has different preferences when it comes to music right?
Although I do admire EXO's music very much
and I enjoyed listening to them, enjoyed working with them very much.
My personal taste is tilted a little more towards the European sound
I guess than American sound. because I believe the EXO sound is a little more
tilted to American sound like more R&B-based, hip-hop based.
While SHINee they're like pretty pop and like you said
we would add some jazz instrument notation in it, but that jazz is not really what American jazz artists would do
but I feel like it's something that European jazz would do.
So I feel like my personal preference or personal taste was more tilted towards their music.
U: Did you have a friendship already with all these European producers
or did you have to cold email them and be like "Hey so I've heard some of your stuff want to try out K-pop?"
It was a little bit of both. Some of the writers were already working with SM when I joined some writers that I had to reach out.
So like I would talk to either their management or their publishing company to say
"I really like the stuff that blah blah blah was putting out
and I was wondering if there's a chance if it could like collaborate or work"
Sometimes they'll respond sometimes they don't.
And then sometimes that even if you really like their music that you don't get what you need
or sometimes even if you weren't really sure about whoever that person's music was
but you like get something that you really like in the end. So you never know.
So I always loved experimenting with different writers
and I guess I was pretty open to people when they also like sent me cold emails
saying that "Oh hey I want to come to one of your sessions.
Is it possible to like you know do a session with your producers and writers and whatnot?"
U: Which songwriting or producer/songwriter pairs can we thank you for bringing into the k-pop world?
Like was LDN Noise and Adrian your decision or...?
M: There was a camp that we did with Adrian.
So Adrian came, LDN Noise...I met them in the small town of Sweden
called-I don't even know if I can pronounce it right...
Örnsköldsvik?
M: Örnsköldsvik?... U: That sounds good to me...
M: Well I have to check with Louise (Louise: Örnsköldsvik) that's where i met her too.
So there is a small music school.
That school basically allows their students to write and compose and then we did a camp with that school.
Like we went to a camp where our professional writers were also invited
and the students were also like another part of the songwriting camp.
And Louise back then was a student there and LDN Noise was there so that's when i first met them.
And then we decided that it'll be great to have them come to Korea and like do a camp.
U: When you started doing more Pledis, writing for like PRISTIN and Seventeen
and bring- were you the one who brought Simon Petrén over?
Because he had been doing so much SM stuff before then...
M: Yeah because I really liked his music, I believed in his music.
So I...like when BUMZU and I were talking about doing a camp
for the debut album for PRISTIN, that's when I thought "You know what?"
"We'll be good like this guy".
And then I brought over the whole team because they kind of worked as a team.
Although they also work separately too but they also been friends
and they create this synergy when they work as a team.
So I invited them and also Ylva Dimberg who is a good friend of mine. So yeah.
And then...Oh I remember Black Widow of PRISTIN
I remember suggesting that they should try something like that. Because I remember
watching some of their performances in the past
and I felt like "Oh you know they could do something that's pretty like strong and a little dark".
And then that's how we came up with a song like Black Widow too.
U: When scouting out artists and producers and trying to find what their strengths are,
what what's your thought process when you're listening to like performances or past productions?
M: I would have to check out the artist's music first:
What kind of musical directions they want to take and then what kind of style that they're looking for?
The second: once we decided I would try to make a combination to play out who will be good to work with who to do this?
For instance I believe that
I think you guys can also see from the credits Ylva works great with this producer DEEZ.
So I would always want to pair them together for at least one session.
Either based on my past experiences of how they have worked and what kind what they have created together.
Or even without that I would say this person is pretty R&B based and blah blah blah and this person is pretty Korean and then what's gonna happen if we add the two?
Or this person is super musically talented yet lacks a little bit of understanding about K-pop world
and I would try to pair this person with an experienced producer
or writer so that like they can give them like little pointers.
U: Does the language barrier ever hinder you from pairing international songwriters with Korean only songwriters?
M: That's when I used to translate a little bit but I think they speak the common language: music.
So at first because of also cultural differences
that they would be a little taken aback,
especially usually Korean writers will find it a little difficult to communicate with foreign writers.
But you give them like couple hours or so or if it's longer couple days and they get laid back a little more.
So you will notice that in the beginning of the session they
come out a little more often to ask for my help
for translation but as the session progresses they will come out less and less.
U: Feeling the flow of each other?
M: Yeah and then some of them in the end like if they
if some Korean writers end up participating in a lot of camps
they end up speaking this "Music English"
so that they speak just enough English to be able to communicate with foreign writers.
U: what does that sound like?
M: No I mean like...
it's pretty uh- it can be sometimes a little crude.
Because it's all yes/no.
So I think it's also learning yes or no is also hard for Koreans because Koreans
are pretty reserved when it comes to giving a hard no.
So it's also in our culture that I think no is considered a little rude.
So we would take an indirect way of saying no.
But also foreign writers I've heard that they have to simplify what they say,
and they feel rude too.
Because instead of having to like "no, blah blah blah" and have to explain everything they're
like "no". The person who doesn't speak the language probably
won't understand the whole thing so they try to make it efficient by just saying no.
But I think in the end we all understand that we all come from different parts of the world,
and we speak different languages that
Koreans don't take an offense, the foreigners don't take an offense, and we
all like I don't know like speak the common language. So
like if sometimes things don't work out they'll play on the pianos like "this is what I'm talking about".
U: So as an A&R you mentioned before that sometimes you are able to work in the studio while producers and songwriters are creating a song.
So I was wondering what are some of your favorite memories in the studio when working with songwriters?
M: I don't know if it's like a favorite memory but one that is pretty strong in my memories
is when Tay and Adrian were working on 4walls for F(x)
cause I was very tired that day.
Both: *laughing*
And I remember I was like dozing off a little bit in the back so "oh that sounds cool..."
Because Tay and Adrian sang it, it was at a first a guy song and then we decided to
pitch it up like five semitones to make it a girl song.
I remember Tay sang it *sings* it was like
Tay has a great voice but it was a little high
but I liked how that him like reaching that note that sound-how that sound came out,
it was like "oh that's so cool". I remember that.
Another one is when we wrote Dear Santa with Simon, Maja, Andreas I think.
It was during the summer.
We decided that I was like "oh let's write a carol" U: *laughs* During the summer.
M: Yeah we wrote that in like I think in July or June.
Oh and then there was a screen like a big screen on the wall-hanging on the wall,
other than the computer monitor.
So we put up like a video of a fireplace on that screen,
turned off all the lights, we're just jamming. So yeah that's how Dear Santa came out.
U: Yeah. Gotta put yourself in the mood, huh?
M: And I would say if I were to bring it to more recent memories
I would say Ride or Die for Kai. (U: Oh! With Adrian) Because that was
the very first song that we wrote-I wrote-over an online session.
It's when the Corona pandemic started-like it was just when it started-
I think we were trying to write over Kakaotalk that was not easy because we couldn't hear ourselves well.
U: Yeah...
M: Yeah but it turned out great!
So but after that I figured out other programs
and platforms that allowed me to use my interface, allowed me to play my music through computer...
So that thing...Yeah that got easier but I remember just like trying to work it out over the phone...that was fun...
U: What song do you feel went through the most metamorphosis and that you feel super proud of the end product?
M: Taemin's Press Your Number. We had to like reproduce the entire song
Oh yeah the one that's required a lot of change! Produce 101! That killed me! That almost killed me!
U: Did you have any opportunities to work with the idols themselves in the studio?
M: Jonghyun came to sessions, Amber often joined too. Henry was another character that joined. I also remember seeing BoA.
Woozi is super talented. He was a great writer when he joined.
U: What musical elements make up a K-pop song versus something mainstream that we would hear in the western pop?
M: I would say a lot of variations.
Maybe the music industry people just saying this,
but we hate listening to the same part over and over again.
So we definitely want variation happening in the second verse
instead of having the first verse repeated in the second verse.