What are you working on?
Just trying to make some sense of these numbers.
Pornography.
Oh, I hope my parents don't watch this.
The Guardian, January 2020.
Jim Waterson, shout out.
And the first paragraph says 'parents are oblivious to the extent to
which their children are watching pornography according to a rare in-depth
study of teenagers viewing habits that shows adult material has become a
normalised part of young Britons' lives'.
'Who's that?'
'Oh, God!'
That's kind of one of the points of doing this episode,
I feel like it's not just parents, it's like people are oblivious
to how other people's habits around porn are changing and developing and
the impact that has on their relationships.
'Of course it affects relationships.'
'The things that men see in videos they expect from the women in their lives.'
I feel there's a lot of a hysterical conversation around porn.
'Porn is like a drug. It can rewire the brain.'
'I think that pornography is a cancer to society.'
'I think pornography is deeply damaging to
the human psyche, I think it's deeply damaging to man.'
'My knight in shining armour was a porn addict.'
There are stats that say a third of all Britons are watching pornography
and I think it might even be higher than that, I don't know.
I mean, that's relying on people admitting that they're watching it.
'Yes, I do.'
'I do.'
'I used to be, like, an addict of porn.'
'Really? – Yeah.'
In this episode, I wanted to talk to men about why they watch porn and how they think
it affects them.
I started out by asking you the viewers and many of you were
keen on getting involved in this conversation.
Oh my God, people want to talk about it!
Some of this comments are …
I caught up with Jon Ronson, the journalist and documentary maker who spent time
researching the porn industry from the inside.
And I speak to porn star Casey Calvert to hear what she's learnt
about men through her work.
But to kick things off, I decided to have a chat with some of my guy friends
who I think are fairly representative of normal people.
How do you feel about coming to talk to me
about pornography in front of cameras?
I don't care.
It feels like, yeah, conversations need to be had.
Stuff that obviously exists in the world so why not talk about it?
And I know you two.
We would have this conversation not on camera.
The problem is the fact that I know that my mum is eventually going to watch it.
That's the issue.
What do you think constitutes a normal use of porn?
Once a day, couple of favourite websites.
Once a day ting?
I would say once a week.
Once a week?
I feel like that's too low. – Yeah … Once a week sounds like,
you have your week ... Have a little treat.
Go on then. Do you know what I am saying?
I think that would be good, I think that's healthy.
But that's a different question to what's normal.
Maybe when you were younger one day you might
have done it like five times, just try it as an experiment.
In a day?
Oh, yeah, what's the max you done it in one day?
I think, yeah, you talk about …
How many times have you tugged the man?
If you were to say what's the normal amount people eat chocolate?
I would say, probably once a day, but the healthy amount is once a week.
But does it change massively if you're in a relationship?
Yeah, I would say for me it does.
I'd say for me it does but it can also not.
Like, for example, that's all stuff to do with, like,
matching up sex drives and stuff like that.
Like I said, I want to be adaptable to my partner
and do what they are on, do you know what I am saying?
But that's actually a really healthy way to use it because you're not pushing your
sexual expectations on to somebody that you care for.
I'd say I use it a lot less when I'm in a relationship
but maybe even like don't use it at all.
I can't lie, it can be really fun, don't get me wrong.
Sometimes I love logging in, you know, you're feeling a bit horny, go on then.
You explore you find someone ... Like, you can really tailor …
No, but that's the part that made me quit because you fall into a hole.
– It's a fantasy world man. And you're like four pages deep
of a very niche search and you're just like … Rah!
You've got different tabs open …
'Four pages deep in a very niche search.'
'I'm online again! Yes!'
So, we did a call-out to our viewers. We were asking men:
do you watch pornography?
If so, do you think it would be easy to stop?
And do you think it has an impact on your relationships?
And if so, how?
We got so many responses, oh my God.
Good question!
Thanks.
'I used to watch it quite regularly …'
'Definitely it can get out of control and affects relationships
with a spouse in many ways
but I found that it does help reduce pressure on my wife and can work to
spice up a 20-year-old monogamous relationship.'
'It made me realise that I have a right to a sex life …'
'Not interested in an affair, too much trouble,
but the old regular meeting with the same escort
has helped greatly and now I rarely look at porn.'
I'd far rather be having good sex with my wife again, I live in hope.'
'Basically what he's saying is that he would like to have sex with his wife
but porn made him realise that he kind of has a right to a sex life
and now he's sleeping with an escort.'
No judgment, I'm not judging you, mate.
'My wife has all sorts of gynaecological issues …'
'With very short cycles, long periods of pain, etc, porn is a good aid
to divert tension and not put pressure on her.'
Very often when we talk about porn it's like: "Oh, it's damaging relationships"
and that's the only narrative you get.
And I'm not saying it doesn't have the potential to damage relationships,
it's important to acknowledge that there are other ways of
looking at this.
If your partner has gynaecological issues and can't have sex,
OK cool, then what?
Yeah, I think it's important to just acknowledge that exists as an experience
when we're talking about porn.
Do you think there's a negative thing about young guys watching porn?
Most definitely, especially if you're getting majority
of your sex education from porn.
I'd like to think the majority of realistic and useful sex education
I've got is generally from
like, partners, like, because I think in porn it's so unrealistic.
When we talk about porn, people always talk about it in a way
that it's from the male's perspective, the male gaze
and that it makes women have to be submissive and all of that.
Do you think that porn puts unrealistic expectations on to men as well?
Yeah, definitely.
I agree I think that's another reason why you shouldn't watch porn too much,
especially as you're younger because if you watch porn
and, like you're saying, you're getting the basis of your sexual education
off that, then you think you're supposed to have sex exactly like that.
I think it affects men more than they know and that's when they can begin to get
things such as performance anxiety.
We're only judging ourselves by what you see,
so I think I've been there when I was younger.
I think through experience of life, you realise that it's OK,
that you're just normal.
'Don't make me feel weird because I like porn.
You're the weird one for not liking porn.
'I am normal as shit.'
When I have this conversation with you, I can imagine somebody watching this,
and like, a parent or somebody of like a different generation potentially
watching it and being like, you know, someone with kids, being like:
"Oh, this is irresponsible."
But actually what you're saying is so … the norm.
If we don't speak in the open,
we are just going to keep making things taboos that maybe don't need to be taboos.
And when things are a taboo, it becomes more dangerous
because people will find a way
to discover it on their own and have no knowledge.
With porn you can get lost in it, you can start seeing stuff which is a bit …
Doesn't need to be in my consciousness.
It's just how you use it, man.
Be conscious of how you use it, if you are using it.
And if you're not, you know …
I think you can avoid so many fights in life,
I mean literal fights. – Be aware of your energy.
Just by going into your room, and busting one off.
And on that note.
I don't know.
I've enjoyed this, I've enjoyed this, we're going to leave it there.
– No, no, we need to stop now. Do you know how many angles
you can go down with this conversation?
OK, it's done, alright?
What's your favourite porn? – Cool, thank you.
Yeah, what do you like watching? – We've cut the interview.
I'm not watching porn, I'm on a no fap diet.
So this fella, from Dundee, says, 'I occasionally watch
pornography especially if I'm going to be in the
house alone for extended period of time, a day or more'.
You're both smiling.
'I have a high sex drive so when my partner is not around, I will watch to satisfy my needs.'
'I will admit I'm very open and have very liberal views, for example,
I don't understand why people get so upset about women breastfeeding in public …'
Totally unrelated, bro but I'm glad you're down with breastfeeding.
'Sex with someone I love is better than a wank but in the same way that going to
a restaurant is better than making a cheese toastie at 1am in my kitchen alone.'
'A late-night toastie is sometimes just what you need.'
Why do they keep making comparisons? Why?
Why have you compared masturbation to a cheese toastie at 1am?
And why do I understand it like that is
my main issue and they say there and I'm like I get this for some reason.
Well, we're all tapped, we're all tapped.
I really respect Jon Ronson's work in this area.
He's done two hugely successful audible series on the porn industry.
The Butterfly Effect and the Last Days of August.
So he knows a lot about porn.
How's it going?
It's going very well thank you, how are you?
I am very well.
I'm much better for speaking to you, I'm so excited to talk to you and pick your brains
about pornography.
There was a survey that said that the majority
of parents in Britain are in denial or oblivious to their kids usage of porn.
The first time I ever heard the word Pornhub was when my son who was probably
around 12 at the time came home from school and said everybody at school was
talking about this thing called Pornhub.
That's how I heard that it even existed,
it was from a 12-year-old.
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that pretty much every 12-year-old in the world
where porn isn't restricted, like Dubai, is getting their sex education from
Pornhub now.
I read somewhere that you'd been talking about like erectile dysfunction having gone up
like 1000% in 18 to 24 year olds.
And you'd said that could be in some way linked to, you know, the rise of Pornhub or things like that.
Well, what sparked my interest in that was I was on
a porn set one day, it was, I believe, Amish Girls on Rumspringa volume two.
One of the male performers couldn't get an erection even though there was a naked
porn star sitting right in front of him. He got out his phone and went on to Pornhub,
and got an erection that way from going on Pornhub.
So I thought that's, you know, it's unexpected but also in some ways
probably quite expected because if people are growing up these days with
Pornhub and so they're much more used to getting aroused via Pornhub than they
are via actual humans.
Are you talking to porn performers in this?
I haven't spoken to any porn performers, no.
Why don't you talk to Casey Calvert?
She's a producer, she's a director, she's a performer, she makes customs …
She's a Spiegler Girl and Spiegler Girls are like the kind of A-list of porn performers.
That would be great.
Hello! – Hello!
Jon Ronson said to me you are speaking to a porn person, aren't you?
And I said, I don't know any and also
I haven't spoken to any women in this whole series but you know it is a very good
point that in order to kind of do this properly it makes sense to kind of speak
to you because you have the kind of insight.
Doing that kind of work and the interactions that you have,
do you feel that you look at men differently through
your profession like have you do you feel like you've learnt something
different that you wouldn't have known otherwise?
Oh, yes, one million things I know now about men and sexuality.
What springs to mind?
Men's sexuality is just as varied and as nuanced as women's sexuality is.
So you make custom videos, right?
Yes.
What is it that usually gets asked for?
What are the kind of common things that people would ask for?
I mean, it can be anything.
I once shot a video where I vacuumed my sofa with a 1950's vacuum cleaner.
OK.
Did you get to keep the vacuum?
Oh yes, it's in my house.
It's super cool.
I get a lot of requests for either cuckold stuff or hot wife stuff or stuff
where the woman is more dominant than the man and a lot of these guys will
couch their requests in like, I know that I'm not supposed to be this way but it's
something that turns me on.
Men are so societally conditioned across
the western world to be the man in charge that this sort of fetish has
evolved of men wanting to be submissive.
Do you think that there are other things that men feel insecure about
that you found out from people you've spoken to or
other things from pornography that men take on board where you're like,
that's not actually real life, bro.
One of the most common, if you just wanted to poll 100 porn girls and say what's the most common
question you get asked?
I feel like it might be,
does size really matter?
Porn pushes this stereotype of a woman can't orgasm unless your dick is 10 inches long
and this big around.
Which is false, it's just patently false
and I find that a lot of guys become very self-conscious about their penis because
of the penises that they see in pornography and that sucks.
So this guy has written in saying that pornography was his biggest problem possibly an
addiction and he says, 'the problem is the more you watch the less it affects you
and you watch more questionable stuff.'
'My search for reality went for amateur porn
often where the camera is hidden and the girl doesn't know she's being filmed.'
'The other alternative was drunken party videos often sorority or fraternity
because I was in a state of isolation and her self-loathing such that
professional porn seemed implausible.'
'How could these sexy actresses ever lower their standards enough to settle for me?'
'I know how this all sounds, these particular videos get worse and you often find videos where the girl is
clearly too drunk to give consent. I hated myself every time, but I always went back.'
Just that thought is quite uncomfortable,
that somebody would want to watch girls that are like so drunk that they don't know what they're doing,
naturally that makes me just feel really weird and there's not been a lot
of moments in this series where I've like had been presented with
something that's made me feel like uncomfortable but that does make you
feel uncomfortable but I also think it's really important that this is also from
his own words and that he acknowledges that he hated himself for doing that and
that he saw it as an addiction and that he wanted to change that.
I think that actually when you're looking at the problems, the porn is just …
It's just there but the issue is the underlying, like, loneliness and self-loathing where
does that come from?
Everyone of my generation does seem to have watched porn at some point
and like, lots people I know watch porn
like quite regularly.
I think it's actually really hard to have that
conversation because it's pornography whilst it is everywhere, it's still such a taboo.
And the taboo negatively affects the lives of porn performers.
So the taboo is like, you know, convenient for the viewer of pornography who doesn't want
to talk about it but it's very inconvenient for the performers.
How so?
How does that?
So, for instance, you know, they're being robbed blind by
piracy but nobody wants to think about it because nobody wants to think about
the lives of porn performers because nobody wants to feel guilty about
jacking off to actual humans with complicated lives.
If there are people who are concerned about the exploitation of women or just people in general in
pornography, what is a kind of ethical way of consuming pornography to make
sure that you're not kind of demanding something that's gonna exploit people?
If they want to stop watching the tube sites, stop watching free porn.
Find ethical porn companies.
These small, independent porn companies rather than
supporting the big tube sites like Pornhub.
Go to your favourite porn person directly and you can feel more comfortable
knowing that the money is going directly into the pocket of that porn performer
who you are watching when you purchase directly from them.
And I think the reality from where I'm sitting, it's that there isn't actually an alternative to that.
There isn't a 'we will ban porn'.
It's not possible.
You could sweep us all up and send us all to jail and new people are going to start
making porn.
Also I'd say that, you know, younger people who have grown up with
Pornhub and for them porn is a much more normal thing than you know people of my age
are less screwed up about sex and maybe you could argue that's a
positive benefit of the tsunami of porn sweeping the world that it's making
people more sex positive and less ashamed and, you know, that's a good thing.
It's obviously difficult to talk about but I do feel like it's
important that we don't always talk about it in a moral sense like, is it good or is it bad?
Actually engage with the reasons that motivate people to watch pornography.
A lot of the time when we talk about anything but including
pornography and sex, people seem to think that there's like a cut-and-dry final
answer and a script that we should all be on because you feel like, is that
the right thing I'm supposed to say? People are so scared to say the wrong thing.
So scared to upset somebody and then you get to the point where it's like,
well, nobody's saying anything, they're just sitting at home doing more and more kind of
slightly weird things they might not want to talk about and it just gets more
and more extreme.
I hope everybody has great sex, that's all I want for all of you.
Please like, comment and subscribe.
Comment especially because I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
Yeah, this one in particular is going to be interesting.
It will be a bit like the circumcision one, I think.
Please be respectful with your comments and yeah, thanks for watching.