Okay, so I got an email from somebody who lives at Gampo Abbey and had a question. He
used to live here so he sometimes writes questions.
So he said that he was taking a group of visitors around and he had a conversation with a couple
of people who were atheists but were very interested in Buddhism because it felt less
like a religion and more like a philosophy or a set of teachings. And they started talking
about rebirth and the nature of mind and he wasn't exactly sure how to meet where they
were coming from. And they asked some questions about the relationship between body and mind,
specifically if the mind was the result of the body, and how the mind could have a continuum
after death. And these people were genuinely interested. They were also thinking about
things critically. But he kind of reached a point in the discussion where he felt unable
to convey how the Buddhist talk of mind and mind continuing from life to the next was
different from the idea of a soul.
So he was asking for resources on how to do this.
So, first of all in "Open Heart, Clear Mind" [a book by Venerable Chodron] there is a chapter
about mind and rebirth and I think that that's a real good resource for that. And then there's
a chapter about karma and it talks a little bit about how karma goes from one lifetime to the next.
The difference between the mind going from one life to the next and an idea of a permanent
soul is that the soul is permanent. The mind is impermanent. The soul is truly existent.
The mind is not truly existent. The soul is the person. The mind is not the person. Okay?
So that's in brief. But his question continues.
So he's asking for advice about how to engage with people of different faiths, to have a
really genuine conversation with people like that. And doing so helps him to see the dynamic
quality of the Buddhadharma which can be communicated to many people.
So then the summary question is, "I wonder how you have learned to engage with people
who identify as atheists."
Actually, in many ways I find atheists the easiest people to talk to about the Buddhadharma.
Because Buddhists are also atheists. We don't believe in any kind of creator of the world,
or managing deity of the world, or supervisory anything. So if you see theist -- usually
refers to the idea of a creator or manager of the world -- atheist is someone who doesn't
believe in that, well that includes Buddhism. If you want to say that.
With some people you would not say that. If you were talking with some Christians, for
example, you wouldn't say Buddhism is atheist because just that word alone would turn them
off. So with them you would talk in a totally different way. But with people who identify
as atheists I would say yes, we too don't believe in any kind of creator or manager
of the universe. And how we explain things happening and talk about the self being merely
designated in terms of the body and mind and how they each have their own continuum and
the mindstream goes ahead and carries with it the imprints of the actions that we've
done, and you know how karma influences our life and what we experience, what we're reborn
as and such. And I think often with atheists you can speak much more directly about the
Buddhist worldview. Because they don't have this idea of god in the way.
But then, you have to see when you're talking to an individual what that individual believes
in, where they're coming from. And then skillfully talk to them so that you can bring in some
of what they already believe which corresponds with Buddhism. Because that automatically
makes it easier for the person to listen to the things that are different. If you start
out with the differences between what they believe and what Buddhists believe then they
usually, easily, shut down.
But one thing that I think everybody believes, whether people are atheists or agnostics or
theists or whatever, everybody believes in kindness and everybody believes in compassion
and ethical conduct. And so if you talk about that kind of stuff then people really get
it. And especially since Buddhism really emphasizes kindness and compassion aren't just towards
the people you like, it's towards everybody, and then describe how meditation plays a role
in getting us to expand our mind towards everybody. And what love and compassion mean. And how
they fit into our daily life. And so on.
So I think that's always good to start out with because that really brings people in.
And then if you're talking with somebody who's -- Well, Jewish I was going to say, but then
it depends on what kind of Judaism because they have different beliefs -- Or Christian
or Muslim, who believe in a creator. Then you would talk more about love and compassion
and ethical conduct and emphasize that. And then when they say "do Buddhists believe in
god" then you say "Well, it depends what people mean by god." Does "god" mean the principal
of love? Well yes, Buddhist believe in the principal of love. You know? Kind of limitless
love. Does "god" mean some being who is more spiritually advanced than we are? Well yes,
Buddhism has something comparable, we call them Buddhas and bodhisattvas and arhats.
Does "god" mean a creator? Well that's the point where Buddhism differs. But if you go
through the other meanings of "god" first and show some similarity with Buddhism, and
then bring up the difference, then it isn't such a hard thing for them to get.
And then, like I said, with the atheists then it's often much easier. Sometimes with people
who have a very scientific perspective, who think that the mind is an emergent property
of the brain then I ask them "Well what do you mean by an emergent property of the brain?
What does that really mean?" And ask them, you know, "Are the mind the brain the same
nature? And if they're the same nature, well, then is the mind something physical? If they're
different natures, and the mind is not physical, then how could the mind be an emergent property
of the brain, which is physical?" And so just kind of throw those questions out for the
person to think about and then see where they're at, how much they want to discuss, and if
they're interested then talk more about how Buddhists would answer those kind of questions.
But I think these kind of discussions are very very good. And I think it's especially
good when he saw that he got to a point where he couldn't explain the difference between
the continuity of mind and a soul. And when you get to that point in a discussion with
somebody, then you go "Oh, now I see where I really need to focus in my practice, what
I need to study, what I need to contemplate, because here's something that is not clear
in my own mind that I can't explain to somebody else. So it's really good that I understand
this, and this person has actually helped me by showing me where my understanding is
lacking, because now I can go back and I can do some research, I can ask my teachers, I
can meditate on this more, and clarify my own understanding because that will definitely
be of benefit to me in my own practice."
So whenever you're talking with somebody and you reach a question that you can't answer
adequately, don't try and make something up, and don't humiliate the person for asking
the question, just say "You know, that's a really good question and I'm still a simple
practitioner and I'm going to go back and do some research and ask my teacher and think
about that some more and I can let you know." And then really take it as something good for your practice.