Okay, so...
We were thinking about whether we wanted to make this video
for quite a while.
It's kind of a topic that hits a bit close to home,
being in the classical music industry.
But, after we thought about it a lot,
we think it's important to talk about it and raise awareness,
because people out there are getting scammed.
We were recently chatting to a few friends of ours
that work in the business of selling musical instruments.
They told us a lot of stories they have experienced themselves,
- and also that they've heard behind the scenes. - Mm-hmm.
Initially it was like, a shock to us,
but then after some careful reflection
we kind of mapped it back to our own experiences
and realised that we ourselves have been kind of
- subject to similar kind of experiences, - Mmm.
and so what we're talking about today is some of the
- unethical practices that happen in selling musical instruments, - Yeah.
especially in the violin world,
- where violins can go up to such incredibly high prices. - Mmm.
We want to share some of the stories that we've heard,
and how we could also relate back to our experiences.
I can only imagine how many people are affected,
and they don't even know they're affected.
So if you're a musician, listen to this video,
I'm sure some of you probably relate to
some of the things we're about to talk about.
We're gonna basically cover two main points.
The first one is about what we only recently discovered
to be a very widespread international phenomenon
of a secret commission system.
In the second part of the video, what we're going to talk about is
- selling fake instruments. - Yeah.
Alright, so, commissions.
It's kind of hard, when doing research about this,
to find statistical evidence, because so much of this is
underground and just hearing stories.
But we did find an article from The Strad magazine
that talked about this, we'll link it in the description below.
What we learned was that um,
teachers operate from a kind of commission system,
where when the student buys an instrument,
the teacher secretly takes a cut.
Note the word "secretly" as well.
A lot of the times this is kind of an unspoken rule,
and this results in very questionable behaviour, right?
So...
Now these friends of ours that we were talking to mentioned that
sometimes a kid would buy an instrument from the shop,
and then a few days later,
they'll just get a phone call from the teacher.
They'll be like, "Alright, so I heard that my student
bought a violin from your place, uh,
you know what to do, right?"
And, like already to me, I was so shocked to hear this.
There's one thing when it's like
- an agreed-upon commission system, right? - Yeah.
Like an affiliate marketing link thing,
but the shop owner themselves don't even agree
to this commission system.
And then they have to cough up commission,
based off an expectation!
You know, sometimes they try to be like,
"No, we just sold our instrument."
But a lot of the times these teachers have such authority and power
in the local musical community,
they kind of use their influence as a threatening mechanism, so,
they might kind of insinuate,
"If you don't give me a commission,
I'm going to spread to all my students,
- not to buy instruments from your place." - (Brett) Yep.
- And then their teachers probably have connections to other teachers, - Yes.
so it's like your deal has been cut off from that single teacher
for all the students, because you wouldn't agree to pay a commission
- that wasn't even agreed on in the first place. - Yep.
Another example where this would often go wrong is for example,
the teacher initially recommended the student to buy from shop A,
but the student themselves decided, "I don't like this violin."
They come to shop B and buy an instrument from shop B.
The teacher will still call shop B and ask for the commission.
- Yeah. - Even though,
- like the whole idea of a commission is typically, - Like...
- "I helped you get the sale so I get a commission." - Yeah, so you get a commission.
You can't trust the teacher to really genuinely care
about you as a student, or if it's your kids that are learning,
if they're gonna get a good instrument or not.
Back in the day as students, I really trusted my teacher.
- 100 percent! - And I think that's such an important dynamic to have,
when the student trusts that the teacher
- has...their best interest in mind. - their best...yep.
But unfortunately, there are definitely cases where
a teacher might be driven out of greed to sell crappy instruments,
or to recommend a much more expensive, overpriced violin,
and there are definitely stories that we've heard of teachers asking
violin dealers and shop sellers to mark up by a hundred percent,
just to get that bigger commission.
One of my very first teachers in Taiwan
definitely scammed me, um,
we found out later that we paid way too much for a violin that
- doesn't sound...like it's meant to even sound good. - (Brett) Yeah, yep.
- I think we probably paid 10x the price. - Oh my god.
The parents just want the best for their kid,
and then for the teacher to know that they have this power
- to really kind of push it that way, it's like, - Yeah.
what are you trying to achieve besides more money?
When it comes to buying instruments,
please try to get second and third opinions.
- Go to someone the teacher has no association with. - Yes.
And say, "Hey, what do you think of this instrument?"
- "What do you think of this bow?" - (Eddy) Yeah.
Like honestly speaking, it's so hard to know what a good instrument is.
I'd say even now, after like 22 years of playing experience,
it's still not easy.
I still can't tell sometimes, and sometimes I need to check,
I need to ask around, I need to go,
- "Hey, is this the actual price?" - Yeah.
"How does that sound, actually?"
A 6, 7 year old starting, and their parent...
- Their parent doesn't even play instrument, - Yeah.
they're not going to know, and they're probably too busy, so...
It's unfortunate, right?
As long as there's a profit motive for teachers,
people will be abusing this.
There are just so many other ridiculous stories about it, for example,
there was a case where a student bought from this shop,
but that student has two teachers, and both teachers called
to demand for a commission.
And so now, the shops like, they're being forced to jack up their prices
to anticipate commissions that they didn't even want to, right?
They're kind of under the mercy of the recommendations.
On one hand, you go, "What do I do? Do I say no to everything?
- I lose all my business to a competitor that's next door, - Mm-hmm.
- who pays all the commissions." You know? - Yeah.
I think we can all agree the problem here is there's a betrayal of trust
between the teacher and the student,
and there's a kind of power dynamic that happens
between influential teachers and small business owners.
One of the more common solutions that we've heard of,
and again I don't know if this is possible,
but it's that if our ecosystem is gonna depend on referrals,
and teachers are going to want to make a little bit of money,
perhaps the best thing to do is to make this whole process transparent,
- and to make it fair. - Yep.
- None of this 100% markup thing, alright? - (Brett) Yeah.
It's so much better to tell a student,
"Hey, just so you know,
- I would recommend this guy, but I also get a commission from it." - Yeah, yeah.
There's also teachers that sell instruments to their students directly,
- and that's also a bit sus. - Yeah, that's also very sus.
But, you know...
- To be honest, we didn't really think much about it, we never did. - We never did, we never, we never,
I didn't even know it existed.
- It didn't even occur to me. - It didn't even... occur to me.
Yeah, I just wanted to make sure the student got a good freaking rehair,
so you can come back and not play like sh...
No I'm just joking.
It's funny, 'cause we...
When we initially said like,
"Nah, this doesn't really happen where we grew up."
And they're like, "No it happens, you probably just don't know about it."
And then we thought about it...
We start seeing all the little suspicious evidence...
We just...didn't know!
We didn't know.
- Oblivious. - We're so oblivious!
- And if we're oblivious, how many people are oblivious, you know? - It's...yeah, it's so...
It's terrible.
- So that's the first part, right? - That's commissions.
I hope some mafia instrument dealer isn't gonna come after us,
- after making this video. - Yeah, it's like...
We're just trying to make the industry a better place.
The second part we want to talk about is fake instruments.
Everyone knows it's everywhere,
- but, everyone's just going along with it. - Yeah.
Tell them about how your label got chipped off in your violin,
the Scrollavezza.
Oh, yeah! So, okay.
Look, I still like my instrument, um,
it's been with me for like, 12 years,
before I changed to a new violin.
- The maker is called Renato Scrollavezza, - Mm-hmm.
but the "R" was cut off.
- So I was like, "Who's this Kenato Scrolla...Japanese/Italian guy, - Yeah.
- making my instrument? It's so dodgy!" - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...!
But I never went further than that, because I was like 14 year old, 15,
had other problems in my life, right.
- Then one day, on...after the tour, 2017 tour, I met the maker. - Yeah.
- I actually met the maker's daughter first, - Mm-hmm.
and the maker's daughter looked at the violin, she said,
"It might be his."
- All of his instruments apparently, there's a nickname for the instrument. - Yeah.
But mine didn't have a nickname, on the top of the label,
someone cut it off,
- Mmm. - and put that label on a different instrument somewhere,
So that label is currently on an instrument somewhere around the world,
someone probably thinks it's a legit Scrollavezza.
And I was like, "Oh my god!" and she goes,
"And I'm also not sure if this date is the correct date."
But she took it to him anyway,
we verified that it was his, 'cause he started crying,
- it's like a little baby. - Yeah.
She thinks it's called the Scarlatti,
it's named after the composer Scarlatti,
but she goes, "Yeah, someone cut it off."
Case in hand, it's like, it's so easy to fake an instrument.
Another story on that topic,
our friends in the violin shop, right,
someone came in with a violin to repair.
There was a label of some maker...
The label made it look like
- as if they paid five figures for the instrument, - Yeah.
but then the shop owner's just like,
"That's our violin."
"Someone bought our violin, stuck a label on it,
and sold it with an insane markup."
Doesn't help that people had become very good at making fakes.
There's a story that Vuillaume once pranked Paganini
by making a lookalike copy of his Guarneri.
Paganini himself apparently couldn't tell the difference
when looking at it, his own violin.
So you can imagine how good these fakes are, and also...
- They go further, they even fake the age, - (Eddy) Yeah.
make it look older, and even change the parts
slightly to deceive the buyer.
- So don't be fooled by that, I'm sure you can go to a shop now - Yeah.
and see an instrument that looks kind of old
- but it's actually made in 2020 or something, yeah. - Yeah.
- Dating itself could be a problem, you know, - (Brett) Yeah.
you could be like, "Oh, but I can do some analysis to see
- how old the violin is." - (Brett) Yeah.
- But they were already making fakes of Stradivarius. - Yeah, it's so...exactly!
So someone in 1700, 1800 made a violin at the same time.
- Yeah, you can't tell by the date. - You can't just tell by the date!
Actually, unrelated story, but this is something to keep in mind as well.
Some modern violin makers make their violins with thin wood.
Thinner wood means the violin will sound better in the short term,
but it ages badly.
- Violins with thicker wood, they need more playing and time to mature. - Yes.
- So that's something else to be wary of. - Yeah, and the thicker wood's like,
it doesn't mean it's always good, it just means there's better potential.
- Like your old one was also thin, right? - Yeah, my...my old violin...
The sound just...
- It went...yeah. - ...really downhill.
- It was an old violin, the typical old violin story, so it just... - I mean, I don't know.
- You guys gotta be careful, you know? - Yeah.
A really shocking story that we heard from people in the industry,
I couldn't find evidence for this online,
and I can imagine why this wouldn't be public,
because it sounds like quite a scam.
What we've been told was that
there was once a Stradivarius convention,
where people that owned Stradivariuses all came together.
But when it came close to the event there were more Strads
than what was recorded to be historically made by Stradivarius himself,
but because all of these Strads were "certified",
they weren't able to say whose was fake.
And so they had no choice but to cancel the event.
Bit like an Among Us situation.
- Yeah...! - There's like an imposter within the Stradivaris, you know?
But I think what's the most shocking thing about this story is that
it really goes to show, and I...we've been thinking about this for a while,
- it's like, certifiers themselves may have questionable motives. - Yeah, it's just...
It doesn't mean if it's certified
- it means it's a legitimate instrument. - Are they getting bribed from it,
- are they getting secret commissions? - Yeah.
Once something is certified as a Strad,
- it can be sold for 10 million dollars. - And you can get a six figures just based on the commission.
What do you guys think, right?
These are like, just stories that we've heard,
but actual well-known cases
of fake instruments have been documented.
One of the most infamous examples was
this man called Dietmar Machold.
He was a...Austrian celebrity businessman and society host,
and he was convicted of swindling creditors out of
- an estimated 100 million euros, - Oh my...
by using an assortment of real and faked Stradivarius violins
to dupe them into bogus transactions.
According to these articles,
he was one of the world's leading Stradivarius experts.
- There you go, an "expert", right? - There you go, guys.
They called in a forestry expert to examine
the two supposed Stradivari violins,
and they found out that the two instruments
the bank was holding in the safe
(Brett) were only 2,000 euros a piece!
Bro!!!
Holy moly!
He was selling 2,000 euro violins for...
(both) 6 million!
That's disgusting!
You see how incentivising it is, for people to make these moves.
Again, like, just 'cause an expert has certified it,
doesn't mean it's legitimate.
We won't go in too much detail, but there's another link below,
- if you want to find out about...fake Sartory bows. - Sartory...
- Sartory is kind of like a premium bow as well, - Yeah.
also very...how much do they go for?
- Sartory bows are like, 30,000 dollars. - Yeah.
I wouldn't mind a Sartory bow, but...
- ...it's just a...a stick of wood. - Yeah.
Now you can see how, whoa,
now we're talking about faking it.
We have a friend,
she's definitely not someone that can just
cough up money to buy a half a million dollar violin.
- But, in the violin world, - No way.
the price has been jacked up so much,
to the point where a lot of the value of good instruments are
no longer just about how they sound,
but there's the history and art behind it.
And so, she almost got tricked into buying...
- A Scarampella violin, so this is also quite a good violin, - (Eddy) Yeah.
- probably going for a hundred thousand [dollars] now. - Yeah.
You know, she was considering buying it,
got a lot of different opinions, a few experts said, "It's a fake."
So she's not even in a financial position where she can be,
- I think she was considering getting a loan out. - She was considering,
that would have taken her a long time to pay off.
And then imagine finding out that it was a 2,000 dollar violin,
- it would crush...that stuff crushes people. - It's horrible, yeah.
- Because the bank can't help you on that. - Yeah.
And another story I just remembered,
remember how your bow got swapped out?
Yeah! So this is one of those moments in the moment,
when we thought about it we go, "I think it happened to me."
Long story short, can you imagine like a four...
...innocent 13, 14 year-old,
I wouldn't dare to challenge an adult.
So I got my bow for a rehair, picked it up again,
this is so crazy, I picked up the bow,
thinking, "Hey this is not my bow."
Innocently I go, "Hey I don't think this is my bow."
But the bow guy was like, "No, it is your bow."
It ended at that, I didn't question it, because it's an adult!
- As students we trust these adults. - Yeah, I knew it looked different,
I just trusted the adults, like, "Oh, maybe I was wrong."
How can I be wrong, I've seen the bow for like two years,
how can I be wrong?
So we don't know what his incentive was,
but he was trying to move bows around.
- Well I don't even know if it's fake or real to this day, you know? - (Eddy) Yeah.
I probably should take my own advice and take it to everyone,
- just to see, "Hey, is this legitimate?" - Yeah.
But thankfully it wasn't like an expensive bow.
- It's not like...hundred thousand dollars, - Six-figure stuff that...
- 'cause that will literally ruin someone's life. - Yeah.
Finishing up, you know, look,
this is definitely one of the biggest and
most frustrating problems in the music industry,
especially for violins.
The value of a violin often comes from...
- ..."investment" purposes, - Yep.
you know, like investors literally buy violins.
- They're not even musicians, they buy it as an investment. - Dude, they just buy it,
and some investors don't even care if it's a good violin or not,
as long as everyone thinks it's a legitimate instrument,
- it'll go up in value. - It'll go up in price,
and because of that, wealthy people have driven up the cost of violins,
the story is that, modern day makers are not able to find
the formula of the great classics like Stradivarius,
- so therefore they're limited, - Mm-hmm,
- and therefore they keep going up in price. - Mm-hmm.
Even the best soloists today,
- most of them don't own their Stradivarius, - Yes.
- they loaned it. Can't afford them. - Most of them...they're all loaned to them.
It's a big problem, it's one of the reasons that
we went for modern makers as well,
a lot of decent sounding violins with proper historical names
would just be in the six figures.
I would love to play one, but it's...too much, even for us, right?
It's just too much money.
And also you had to go through the whole hassle,
checking its authenticity,
you get three experts, they could have different opinions,
What are you gonna do?
So that's why we kind of went for a new instrument,
the maker's alive, the maker can look at it and go,
"Yes, this is my instrument."
It just makes it easier, that's why.
My advice though, I want to share, is that,
if you're a student, see if you can find a way
to get loaned a great instrument.
- Yeah. - I know a lot of music schools these days have some system.
If not, my personal approach to it is,
you can never truly be sure about the investment side of the value,
so I try to focus on just paying for an instrument that
- at least the sound and practical value makes sense to me. - Yes.
Even if today I found out it was a fake,
how good it sounds makes me feel okay
- with the price I paid for it. - Yes.
- Sound, how easy it was to play, quality of it, right? - Yeah, yeah.
Even get the luthier...
Get multiple luthiers to check the condition of the instrument.
- Make sure they don't swap out the instruments secretly. -Yes.
You know it gets even [crazier], I don't want to dive into it,
some people swap out the top plate with a different piece!
If you're in a financial position to afford it, sure,
- but if not... - I wouldn't push it.
And if you really want to invest in great name makers,
- try to get a lot of different opinions. - Oh yeah.
- If you get one opinion, I'll almost say "don't buy it". - Yeah.
- It's all in relation to how much you want to spend. - Yeah.
- Alright guys! - That's the video for today!
- We don't really have an answer to all of this, - Yeah.
but just please be aware of it.
Share it to your friends that you know
- are just starting to learn a violin, so they know what to look out for. - Yes, please share it, yeah.
So everyone, protect yourselves,
- Yes. - and go practice!