Hello everyone! This video is going to be more of a discussion video as during stream
we’ve had a rather interesting conversations about the maw, irredeemable souls and what
makes a character fit to pay for their sins in revendreth or to be directly send into
the maw. What makes it that a spirit should just spend an eternity in hell or should all
spirits be given a chance at redemption.
First up, this is what they’ve told us about the Maw during blizzcon 2019:
This mysterious place known as the maw. To our knowledge, there is no covenant but our
knowledge is very limited about this place. The maw is this swirling vortex of darkness,
almost like a black hole and precious few souls over the eons, the arbitter would send
directly into the maw. Those would be seen as the most tainted, the most irredeemable,
the darkest most dangerous souls that were signed to the maw. As much for their own punishment
as to protect the shadowlands for what they otherwise could bring with them. Thus the
maw is a mysterie to even the natives of the shadowlands, even the ancient ones. Its known
to haven through whispersn a ruler known as the jailer, the boogyman of the shadowlands.
Its the whispered figure of children tales, the big bad jailer is going to get you locked
away in the maw but basicly nothing is know as nothing ever escaped the maw.
Precious few souls send directly into the maw, the most tainted, darkest, irredeemable
as much for their own punishment as to protect the shadowlands for what they otherwise could
bring with them. An example that we had in the past was from the short story Edge of
Night in which, at the end of wrath of the lich king, sylvanas yeeted herself from the
top of icecrown to end her undead torment. Instead of the blissfull afterlife she was
expecting, she ended up in a realm of eternal torment. Even the spirit of Arthas was there.
If any part of Sylvanas's soul were not at that moment torn and tormented, she might
have even felt—for the first time—the slightest glimmer of pity for him.
In the grand landscape of all the world's suffering and all the evils of the infinite,
the Lich King was… insignificant. This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the
dark, unknown realm of anguish.
The maw as we can now call it and this is the moment in which she got in contact with
the jailer, made a bargain with the nine val’kyr and with their aid returned to Azeroth to
continue her story. Back then hell seemed a bit harsh for Sylvanas, sure enough she
has done some terrible things to claim her vengeance upon Arthas the Lich king, but this
realm was rather gruesome. Arthas as well has done some terrible things, but there were
circumstances. This had us wonder if perhaps the perversion of being turned into undead
just meant a one way ticket into hell. All the death knights and forsaken and scourge
and banshees and what not, being undead means you get to enjoy eternal torment. We were
wondering back then what was up, but then the Bastion Afterlives short released and
we got a very important piece of the puzzle.
“I see... only darkness....for me...” Arthas’ soul gets taken straight to the
maw, no judgemenet ‘Now, cast him into the maw. Return him
to the darkness he served. His eternal suffering awaits.”
“He was...my...student.” “Remember what he did and take your vengeance.”
“Not vengeance...JUSTICE” JUSTICE DEMANDS RETRIBUTION, BUBYE ARTHAS
Arthas’ soul was claimed by Uther and Devos, ferried to the shadowlands but not presented
for judgement by the arbiter. Instead they were the ones that caused him to directly
end up in the maw, who knows what kind of judgement Arbiter would have seen fit and
potentially going against the machine of the shadowlands is what allowed the Jailer to
drag Sylvanas in as well.
Then a second bit of information comes from the Revendreth afterlives short in which sire
Denathrius explain how they work in Revendreth.
Firstly, i assure you that our holy mission to help the most violent and wicked souls
attone for their sins is and always will be our upmost priority. Our rituals are effective.
Our judgment keen but fair. We venthyr remain commited to bringing eventual redemption to
all that desire it. It is through your faithfull work that even the most evil and pridefull
beings may ultimately be spared an eternity in the maw.
The most violent and wicked souls, the most evil and pridefull beings get their chance
at redemption if they want to take it. That’s not to say everyone will be onboard to pay
for their sins in life. Even during questing we see a spirit that’s like nope, I did
nothing wrong, I have nothing to pay for and they’re kicked into the maw... but the chance
is given. And that’s what I honestly would like to see as the standerd, that no souls
are directly judged as bad to bone, unfixablle, but all are given a chance as the term irredeemable
is a very strong one. Imagine for a moment the roster of characters in warcraft, is there
truly one that you would consider to be irredeemable? Old gods would be an easy pick, but they’ve
already distinguished the difference between mortal souls going to the shadowlands and
magical souls going elsewhere, in the case of the old gods potentially back to the realm
of the void lords as well as we need to consider their nature. I’ve used the example of a
scorpion stinging you, is that scorpion irredeemable or is that part of its nature. In the case
of old god creatures, they kinda just do what’s in their nature. So mortal souls is what we’re
looking at, characters that know.
Take an Arthas for example, if he would be brought before the Arbitter, would he be considered
irredeemable? I don’t think so. Once there was a lot of good inside of him, once he was
a prince with flaws too be certain. Flaws that darker forces played upon. Flaws like
wondering why the Light took so long or why his dad was only proud at him the day he became
a paladin, instead of just embracing the compliment and the moment. Flaws like being afraid of
commitment with Jaina. Flaws like the pressure of the crown and wanting to do the best for
his people. No doubt that he wasn’t a perfect champion that made all the right choices,
but that’s also the part that makes him an interesting character. Now we’ve had
the argument that a lot of what Arthas did after picking up Frostmourne is not on him.
They took a piece of his soul, made him an agent of the lich king and so he doesn’t
have any blame but I don’t entirely agree with that. First there’s the road that lead
him to picking up Frostmourne. Ignoring the council of his friends and loved ones and
pushing them on to stratholme where he made a terrible choice.
“This entire cityy must be purged” “How can you even consider that, there’s
got to be another way.” “Darn it uther, as your future king I order
you to purge this city.” “You are not my king yet boy nor would i
obey that command even if you were.” “Then i must consider this an act of treason.”
“Treason? Have you lost your mind arthas? “Have I?”
Even to this day people are still debating weather or not he should have purged stratholme,
if there was something else he could have done or if his actions were justified. That's
the cool part as even Arthas himself doubted in that moment if what he was doing was right
symbolised by his Light powers flickering, his conviction wavering but he couldn’t
show it infront of the men so he pushed on. Pushed on after Mal’ganys right into Northrend
while Uther told the king what had happened. King Terenas ordered their forces to come
back home, but Arthas wouldn’t let them. He burned the ships and blamed it on the mercenarys.
Muradin warned him about Frostmourne and the curse placed upon it, again Arthas didn’t
listen and that’s when the cursed runeblade enters the picture. So there’s already a
chunck of road he walked, choices he made along the way that could have lead to a different
outcome. Then while wielding Frostmourne, it’s not like he became a mindless zombie
without any thoughts or feelings. He might have wanted it to be that way, might have
it acted it to be that way, but it certainly wasn’t the case.
King Anasterian severed Invincible’s legs, that had him quite upset. Assaulting dalaran
where Jaina might have been had a flicker of pain run through him, but she was send
off by Antonidas and not present during the assault, he was glad he didn’t have to fight
her. Point being, there was still somewhat of Arthas left in there, he was not a mindless
drone just following orders but admitingly, there is definatly a shift in what he could
or couldn’t do, what he had and had already given up followed by merging with the Lich
King and causing a whole bunch more of pain and suffering. There’s a lot that would
be written on his sinstone, but there was also a lot of good in him that, with the right
tools and methods, might resurface in the afterlife.
We also spoke about a Garrosh, but the Revendreth short confirms that his deeds in life were
not terrible enough for eternal suffering, somewhat of a bar to compare. Even a gul’dan
was spoken about and in the case of gul’dan once again I would say that there’s more
to the story then yeah that orc is an irredeemable evil spirit, lock it up and throw away the
key. From the harbinger episode we learn that his alternate version had to deal with being
a crippled orc searching for a place amongst his clan and not finding it. Who knows what
exactly he did, but the orcs decide to kick him out which takes him to the throne of elements
and the elements themselves denying him. If that wouldn’t have happened, if the elements
or his people would have embraced him, would gul’dan have turned out the way he did?
“Drink Hellscream. Claim your destiny. You will all be conquerors.”
Probably, because there was a mighty lust for power inside the orc. Power, he would
do anything for it, even sell out his own people, place their souls in the hands of
the Burning Legion... yet still...I would give Gul’dan a chance to pay for those sins.
Would he? I honestly expected Garrosh to turn the venthyr down, but he’s chained up there
so who knows! I’d expect a gul’dan to be unable too either and end up in the maw
anyways...but a choice...a chance...that would be rather cool.
Because it also flows into the question as to what kind of guideline do they use to even
factor in the crimes of a soul. What does the arbiter have to work with since at the
end of the day, good or evil is all a matter of perspective. All of you, the system that
knows so much, you decide whats right or wrong. The same way that you decide what’s funny
or not. Knowing that the shadowlands accepts different planets and realities, it’s unrealistic
to think that the same guidelines can be applied to everybody coming in. Imagine a planet where
it’s perfectly fine to eat eachother where on another that’s a big no no, you can’t
judge those souls equally.
What seems to be happening is that in Revendreth they actually take that into consideration.
They keep in mind what’s oke from the domain that you come from rather then an overal guideline.
Sure enough, some of the sins passed around also apply to Azeroth, btu the idea was sparked
as we went through one of the side quests in Revendreth and we’re asked to collect
sinstones, the stones that describe the bad deeds you’ve done in life.
https://youtu.be/yzJNVL4uCG0?t=1550
Being a true accounting of the foul sins of Gorak Skullcrsuher, Karg of the Ubret People
of Zamgraa, first Eagle of Zaar. - Coward, who hid from battle rather than
fighting against the enemies of his clan. - Liar, who befouled the Ways of Zaar with
his deceit and mockery of the truth - Traitor, who negotiated a peace in return
for being a puppet Karg for the invaders to use against his own people
- Singer, who raised his voice to the heavens in violation of the Laws of the Ubret
Especially that last one could not be applied as a sin to a soul that flies in from Azeroth
as they’re unaware of the Laws of the Ubret to begin with. I personally really like that
as it removes the idea that there’s an overarching good or bad portrayed in the shadowlands and
it’s more what the society you come from has deemed good or bad.
There are a ton more sinstones to explore if you’re curious to deep dive into them.
drconstantine94 and Laytis have been adding them wowpedia which i’ll link the the description
down below as more interest tidbits can be found in them like hints at the dragonisles
or mogu going to the shadowlands. Some familiar names and some new ones in there, really worth
the time to check out but for this video we’ve reached the end. As i said at the start, i’d
love to hear your take on this. Do you think there are truely irredeemable souls that should
be send off directly to the maw and if so who, why, tell me everything in the comments
down below. Thank you very much for watching everyone, subscribe if you like my videos,
leave a like if you enjoyed this one aaand until next time....see ya!