>> WE'LL SEE WHERE THIS GOES. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME
TONIGHT. >>> JOINING US NOW.
JOHN McLAUGHLIN, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE CIA AND AN MSNBC
NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST. JOHN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.
I WANT TO PLAY YOU SOMETHING THAT LEON PANETTA SAID TO "MTP
DAILY" TODAY ABOUT HOW IN DOING THIS DONALD TRUMP ROLLED A
GRENADE INTO THE ROOM. >> THE PRESIDENT HAS KIND OF
ROLLED THE GRENADE IN THE ROOM, HAD IT GO OFF, WITHOUT HAVING A
STRATEGY AS TO WHERE WE'RE GOING.
THE REALITY IS THAT WE NOW HAVE A DESERTIFICATION OF THIS
AGREEMENT, AND THAT THEY'RE NOT IN COMPLIANCE WHEN THEY ARE IN
FACT IN COMPLIANCE. WE'RE OUT THERE ALONE WITHOUT
OUR ALLIES. WE HAVE BROKEN OUR WORD.
AND THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS THAT WE'RE THROWING THIS WHOLE MESS
TO CONGRESS, WHICH DOESN'T HAVE A VERY GOOD RECORD OF TRYING TO
DEAL WITH ANYTHING, MUCH LESS THE SITUATION IN IRAN.
IT'S GOING TO CREATE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF CONFUSION
IN A WORLD THAT'S ALREADY VERY DANGEROUS.
>> JOHN, I MEAN, TO JUST PUT A FINER POINT ON THAT.
CONGRESS CAN'T GET THE EASY THINGS DONE.
I AM NOT SURE THEY COULD SUCCESSFULLY NAME A POST OFFICE
THESE DAYS. AND WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE
THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION ARE COMING OUT
AND SAYING OUR ALLIES ARE ACTUALLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE
PRESIDENT ON THIS, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE,
PARTICULARLY THE ALLIES INVOLVED IN THIS DEAL.
AND THEN WE HAVE THE ABROGATION OF A DEAL WHERE THE VERIFYING
ENTITY, THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY, CONTINUES TO
VERIFY THAT IRAN IS DOING THE RIGHT THING, AND WE ARE STILL
IT'S FRAUGHT WITH PROBLEMS. >> ABSOLUTELY.
THE AGENCY HAS CERTIFIED COMPLIANCE WITH THE DEAL ON
EIGHT SEPARATE OCCASIONS SINCE IT WAS INAUGURATED.
LEON PANETTA HAS THIS EXACTLY RIGHT.
IN FACT, I WOULD GO MAYBE A STEP FURTHER AND SAY I THINK THIS IS
ONE OF THE MOST DAMAGING DECISIONS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS
MADE SINCE BECOMING PRESIDENT, BECAUSE OF THE SCOPE AND THE
BREADTH OF THE IMPACT THAT IT WILL HAVE, SEPARATING US FROM
ALLIES, STRENGTHENING HARD-LINERS IN IRAN, PUSHING OUR
ALLIES CLOSER INTO POSITIONS WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA.
AT THE SAME TIME, ALSO CREATING CONDITIONS THAT WILL MAKE IT
MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, SHOULD WE GO INTO NEGOTIATIONS WITH NORTH
KOREA, TO BRING THEM ALONG WITH ANY CREDIBILITY ON ANYTHING WE
AGREE ON. SO, ACROSS THE BOARD -- AND YOU
KNOW, I THINK -- A THOUGHT I HAD TONIGHT IS I SUSPECT MOST OF HIS
CLOSE ADVISERS, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, SO FORTH.
H.R. McMASTER, I SUSPECT THEY GENERALLY SEE IT ABOUT THE SAME
WAY. >> YEP.
>> -- THAT I JUST DESCRIBED. >> YEP.
>> SO WHAT WE SAW FROM DONALD TRUMP TODAY IS THE BEST THEY CAN
MANAGE WITH HIM. AND I AM -- I WOULDN'T TAKE A
BACK SEAT TO ANYONE WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN AND SUSPICION
ABOUT IRAN. >> ABSOLUTELY.
>> I HAVE HELD THAT THROUGHOUT MY CAREER.
BUT NO REASON TO, AS LEON SAID, THROW A GRENADE INTO A ROOM OVER
ONE PART OF THIS ARRANGEMENT WITH THEM THAT'S GENERALLY
WORKING AND IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE
ARRANGEMENT, THE NUCLEAR ARRANGEMENT.
>> RIGHT. THAT'S WHAT THE TWO YEARS OF
NEGOTIATIONS WERE DESIGNED TO DO.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE "WASHINGTON POST" IS TALKING
ABOUT IS THAT BOB CORKER, SENATOR BOB CORKER, IS SAYING
THAT DONALD TRUMP IS PUBLICLY CAST GATING -- PUBLICLY CASS
TRAITING REX TILLERSON. AS CORKER SEES IT, THE BIGGEST
PROBLEM IS THAT TRUMP IS NEUTERING HIS OWN CHIEF
DIPLOMAT, SECRETARY OF STATE REX TILLERSON AND THEREBY INVITING
BINARY SITUATIONS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES WILL HAVE TO
CHOOSE BETWEEN WAR AND A NORTH KOREA OR IRAN CAPABLE OF
THREATENING THE UNITED STATES WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
CORKER SAYS YOU CANNOT PUBLICPLY CASSTRATE YOUR OWN SECRETARY OF
STATE OF STATE. THIS WAS WORK DONE BY CHIEF
DIPLOMATS AROUND THE WORLD. SERGEY LAVROV.
ZARIF FROM IRAN. SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY
FROM THE UNITED STATES. WORKING REALLY HARD FOR TWO
YEARS. PEOPLE WHO HAD DIFFERENT
POSITIONS ON ALL SORTS OF THINGS.
AND NOW WE HAVE A SECRETARY OF STATE WHO REALLY CAN'T PULL UP
TO THE TABLE AND SPEAK WITH THE AUTHORITY OF THE AMERICAN
GOVERNMENT. >> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
AND ONE OF THE TRAGEDIES OF WHAT WE SEE GOING ON NOW IS THAT
DIPLOMACY GENERALLY, AS ONE OF THE TOOLS IN THESE FOREIGN
POLICY TOOLKIT, HAS BEEN DRAMATICALLY WEAKENED.
NOT ONLY BY THE THINGS THAT YOU MENTIONED BUT BY THE -- IN A
WAY, THE DECIMATION OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHICH, DURING MY
CAREER, I ALWAYS REGARDED AS ONE OF THE JEWELS AND THE CROWN OF
AMERICAN SECURITY. AND WE'VE HEARD THAT FROM
SECRETARY MATTIS AS WELL. PLUS, ON THE DIPLOMATIC FRONT,
YOU KNOW, WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING HERE IN THIS SPEECH TODAY IS
AMERICA FIRST, COLLIDING WITH THE NECESSITY IN THE WORLD TODAY
OF COALITION WITH ALLIES AND COOPERATION WITH ALLIES TO GET
IMPORTANT THINGS DONE. SO WE'VE DAMAGED OUR CREDIBILITY
HERE WITH PEOPLE THAT WE NEED TO ACCOMPLISH GREAT THINGS IN THE
WORLD. BECAUSE IT'S VERY HARD FOR THE
UNITED STATES TO JUST MUSCLE THROUGH ON ITS OWN THESE DAYS IN
A COMPLEX WORLD. THIS AGREEMENT WAS ONE IN WHICH,
AS YOUR PREVIOUS GUEST POINTED OUT, WE HAD MANAGED TO BRING THE
WORLD TOGETHER ON ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL PROBLEMS OF
OUR AGE. THIS IS PROBABLY, I WOULD SAY,
THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE IN YEARS
IN LIMITING THE MOST DANGEROUS WEAPONS WE HAVE IN THE WORLD.
>> IT WAS -- THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THE TIME WHO DIDN'T
THINK IT WAS A GREAT