Ukrainian experts have
now arrived in Poland
to take part in the probe
of the missile incident
that killed two people
near the border with Ukraine.
CNN senior international correspondent
Sam Kiley is in eastern
Ukraine for us tonight.
Sam, first of all,
what are you learning about
the investigation
Well,
I think mainly just that, Wolf,
that the Ukrainians are now joining
an investigation
that the preliminary findings
of which have been that
there was
an incident, obviously, in Poland
in which two Polish farmers were killed.
The preliminary findings are that
it was a Ukrainian antiaircraft missile
or anti-missile
missile that landed in that field.
I think what is going to be crucial
from the Ukrainian perspective
is whether or not that missile
actually made contact with an incoming
Russian cruise missile.
There were 13, for example, fired
close to the city of Lviv, three
got through,
ten was shot down
if perhaps one of those ten were hit.
I think it would be easier
for the Ukrainian President
Zelensky to climb down from his position
at the moment,
which has still been essentially
no Ukrainian
missile was involved in that at all.
Based on the advice that he'd had before,
they are trying to,
I think, back away from that position
but really want to be able
to make sure
that the international community
keeps the finger of blame,
ultimate blame, pointing at Russia Wolf.
And at the same time, Sam,
Ukraine has now found evidence of torture
by the Russians throughout her son.
What can you tell us
about what was uncovered
Well, this is
a report coming
from the ombudsman who you'll recall
is responsible
for bringing the world's
attention to those atrocities.
In boots, in pen
and recently to the east of Kharkiv,
following the relief
of areas captured by Russia
Now, we are looking
or they are looking
at the long term occupation
of a substantial chunk
of the province of Ukraine.
The Russians came into person in March.
What they're saying is that they believe
that there were 11,
11 locations of what they're calling
torture chambers.
And some of these
are very extensive inside.
He said they
they are saying
and we have got
no corroboration on this other
than the Ukrainian ombudsman
that there are 63 bodies
that they have found.
But the Ombudsman's
office is also saying
that they believe
that could have been far, far more
because this was an area in which
there was a very significant
partizan activity
against the Russian occupation.
There were lots of people
working secretly against it
and therefore many,
many people have disappeared Wolf.
Sam Kiley, be careful over there.
We'll stay in touch.
Appreciate it very much.
Let's get some more in all of this.
Joining us now, the former U.S.
ambassador to Ukraine, William Taylor.
Ambassador thanks so much for joining us.
As you heard,
President Zelensky's,
most recent statements
seem to be shifting a bit.
How important is it
for the allies that President Zelensky
be completely transparent
on what happened?
Well,
I think he's going to be
completely transparent.
He was told earlier
that it was not his missile,
and that's what he said to the world.
He's now heard the other bits of evidence
and he's come out and said, you know,
if we hear he's
glad he's got people there
doing the investigation,
as I'm just reported,
and he wants to hear from them.
If he hears from that,
he's going to come forward.
He said, we're honest people.
You know, we will.
Will, will, will apologize if we need to
if it turns out
it was one of our missiles.
And everyone makes the same point
that the Russians are to blame
because they're the ones
who are brutally invading
and launching missiles all over Ukraine.
Including the eastern part of Ukraine,
not far from the Polish border.
It's exactly right, Wolf.
And this is invasion
and this bombardment,
this horrible bombardment
of civilian targets,
of infrastructure, of heat, of water
going into the winter.
It snowed today in Kiev winter.
You've been there.
We've been. It's really cold there.
And for him to be taking out
heating systems,
electricity system, water systems.
I was talking to a woman
who lives on the 17th floor
of an apartment.
No electricity,
no water up and down the stairs
just to get water. It's horrible.
President Zelensky now
says some 10 million Ukrainians
are without electricity right now.
And that they have a rotating,
rolling blackout,
so which they can't really predict.
So it's very hard to do it.
You can't charge your phone.
You can't do business
you can't talk to your
people in your own offices
because they may be out of
out of electricity while you're on.
And what do you make of these reports
now that the Russians have been routinely
torturing Ukrainians
and whether in her son or elsewhere?
Wolf, we've seen this every place.
The Russians have been kicked out.
I was in Butcher.
We've heard about it,
as you say, in Kharkiv.
We've not heard about it in person.
The horrible torture, the killings,
the rapes, the
the abductions of children.
These are all war crimes.
There's going to be accountability
for the ambassador.
William Taylor, thanks very much,
as usual, for joining us.