.
. >>> WE’RE BACK WITH THE BREAKING
NEWS THIS MINUTE FROM "THE NEW
YORK TIMES."
YORK TIMES." THE "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTING
THE WHITE HOUSE PUT SOME
RECONSTRUCTED TRANSCRIPTS OF
DELICATE CALLS BETWEEN PRESIDENT
TRUMP AND FOREIGN OFFICIALS,
INCLUDING PRESIDENT VLADIMIR
PUTIN AND THE SAUDI ROYAL FAMILY
INTO A HIGHLY CLASSIFIED
COMPUTER SYSTEM AFTER
EMBARRASSING LEAKS OF HIS
CONVERSATIONS ACCORDING TO
CURRENT AND FORMER OFFICIALS.
JONATHAN ALTER IS BACK WITH US.
JONATHAN, HERE WE GO, THE
EXPANDING OF THIS STORY OF THE
SPECIAL TREATMENT OF TRUMP PHONE
CALLS.
CALLS. >> LOOK, PRESIDENTS DESERVE A
CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PRIVACY ON
THEIR CALLS.
THEIR CALLS. I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE ON THAT
WE DON’T WANT TO HANDCUFF THEM
TOO MUCH.
TOO MUCH. BUT IT’S INTERESTING THAT THE
ONLY PEOPLE, THE ONLY TYRANTS
THAT HE PUTS IN THESE SPECIAL
SYSTEMS ARE ONES THAT HE’S UP TO
NO GOOD WITH.
WHY IS IT IT’S JUST THE TYRANTS
WHO GET THE HIGH CLASSIFICATION?
IN OTHER WORDS HE’S OKAY WITH A
WIDER CIRCULATION OF THE SUMMARY
OF THE CALLS WHEN IT’S WITH
ALLIES OR OTHER COUNTRIES THAT
THE U.S. DOES BUSINESS WITH, BUT
WHAT
WHAT WHEN IT’S WITH THUGS AND
KILLERS, HE DOESN’T WANT ANYBODY
ELSE IN THE GOVERNMENT TO KNOW
ABOUT IT.
ABOUT IT. RAISES A LOT OF SUSPICIONS.
>> WE ARE JOINED BY PHONE BY
"NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER JULIAN
BARNES, ONE OF THE CO-AUTHORS OF
THIS BREAKING NEWS REPORT IN
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" TONIGHT.
JULIAN, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU TELL
US ABOUT THE WAY THE WHITE HOUSE
HAS BEEN TREATING THESE PHONE
CALL RECONSTRUCTED TRANSCRIPTS?
>> WELL, THIS GOES BACK TO THAT
FAMOUS MEETING IN THE WHITE
HOUSE BETWEEN TRUMP AND RUSSIAN
FOREIGN MINISTER LAVROV WHERE
MR. TRUMP SAID SOME EXPLOSIVE
THINGS THAT HE MAY HAVE LEAKED
INFORMATION ABOUT ANOTHER
COUNTRY’S INTELLIGENCE, ISRAELI
INTELLIGENCE.
INTELLIGENCE. THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS IN THE
PRESS.
PRESS. AFTER THAT WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS
START LOCKING DOWN THESE
TRANSCRIPTS.
TRANSCRIPTS. THEY SHOVED IT IN THIS VERY
CLASSIFIED SYSTEM.
CLASSIFIED SYSTEM. AND WE KNOW THEY DID IT FOR THE
LEADERS YOU WERE DISCUSSING, THE
SAUDI ROYAL FAMILY, BOTH FOR THE
CONVERSATIONS WITH THE KING,
WITH THE CROWN PRINCE, MOHAMMED
BIN SALMAN, AND THE THEN-SAUDI
AMBASSADOR TO WASHINGTON,
ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE ROYAL
FAMILY.
FAMILY. SO THESE CALLS, SOME OF THEM MAY
HAVE BEEN SENSITIVE, BUT THEY
WEREN’T NECESSARILY CLASSIFIED.
THEY’RE NOT WHAT YOU USUALLY PUT
IN THIS CLASSIFIED SYSTEM.
NOW, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS
DEFENDED IT BUT IT WASN’T PAST
PRACTICE.
PRACTICE. >> WHAT ABOUT THE CALLS WITH
VLADIMIR PUTIN?
VLADIMIR PUTIN? >> SO THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
I MEAN, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS
SAID IN THERE.
NOW, YOU KNOW, TRUMP HAS BEEN
VERY SENSITIVE ABOUT HIS
CONVERSATIONS WITH PUTIN,
FAMOUSLY IN HIS MEETING IN
GERMANY HE SEIZE THE
TRANSLATOR’S NOTES AFTERWARDS TO
PREVENT INFORMATION ABOUT THAT
MEETING LEAKING OUT.
WE KNOW HE’S BEEN VERY CAREFUL
ABOUT THIS.
ABOUT THIS. SO THAT’S WHY THEY GOT PUT IN
THE SYSTEM.
THE SYSTEM. BUT I THINK AS WE’RE LEARNING
ABOUT WHAT WAS IN THE UKRAINE
CALL AND WHAT WAS DISCUSSED,
THERE’S GOING TO BE MORE AND
MORE PRESSURE TO LEARN MORE
ABOUT THOSE CALLS WITH VLADIMIR
PUTIN AND WHAT WAS SAID.
>> AND THE EARLY REPORTING
TONIGHT ABOUT THE PRESIDENT’S
CONVERSATIONS WITH LAVROV IN THE
OVAL OFFICE INDICATE THAT HE WAS
BASICALLY FORGIVING RUSSIA
SAYING, LOOK, I UNDERSTAND WHY
YOU ATTACKED OUR ELECTION.
WE DO THE SAME THING.
IT WAS INTERPRETED, ACCORDING TO
EARLIER REPORTS, TO BE BASICALLY
OKAYING, SAYING IN EFFECT,
RUSSIA, I UNDERSTAND THIS IS
JUST SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO DO
AND SEEMINGLY OKAYING ATTACKING
FUTURE ELECTIONS.
FUTURE ELECTIONS. >> NOW, I PERSONAL HAVE NOT BEEN
ABLE TO REPLICATE "THE
WASHINGTON POST" REPORTING ON
THAT, BUT THAT IS A VERY
INTERESTING REPORT BY SOME VERY
TALENTED JOURNALISTS.
TALENTED JOURNALISTS. AND I THINK IT WILL ADD TO THE
QUESTIONS.
QUESTIONS. TRUMP HAS COME BACK TO THIS
THEME ABOUT INTERFERENCE BEFORE
AND SOMETIMES HE BELIEVES IT,
SOMETIMES HE DOESN’T BELIEVE IT.
HE SAYS VERY DIVISIVE THINGS
ABOUT THAT.
ABOUT THAT. AND SO IF THE POST"POST" REPORT
TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE, I HAVE NO
REASON TO DOUBT IT, I THINK
WE’RE GOING TO HAVE MORE AND
MORE QUESTIONS HERE ABOUT WHAT
HE SAID TO THE RUSSIANS.
>> JULIAN BARNES, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR JOINING US WITH YOUR
IMPORTANT REPORTING FOR "THE NEW
YORK TIMES" TONIGHT.
REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> WE’RE JOINED BY RICK WILSON,
REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, ALSO IS A
SENIOR STRIERZ TO PRESIDENT
OBAMA AND HILLARY CLINTON.
PRESIDENT AND CEO FOR THE CENTER
OF AMERICAN PROGRESS.
I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO
THIS ROUND OF REPORTING TONIGHT
OF THE SPECIAL TREATMENT OF THE
PRESIDENTIAL PHONE CALL RECORDS.
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. I THINK WE SHOULD BE REALLY
CLEAR ABOUT WHAT’S HAPPENING
HERE, WHICH IS JUST REMEMBER
ABOUT THIS INFORMATION ABOUT THE
RUSSIA CALL "THE WASHINGTON
POST" IS NOW BREAKING, THE
RUSSIAN MEETING.
RUSSIAN MEETING. REMEMBER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT
PHOTO THAT YOU SHOWED ON MSNBC
JUST A SECOND AGO, IT SAYS
RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY AT THE
TOP OF THAT.
WHY?
WHY? BECAUSE BECAUSE IT WAS THE
RUSSIANS THAT SHOWED THE
PICTURE.
PICTURE. WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?
BECAUSE TRUMP DIDN’T WANT TO
TELL US HE EVEN HAD THE MEETING.
I THINK THE TIME FOR GIVING THE
MOST CHARITABLE INTERPRETATION
TO TRUMP’S ACTIONS ARE OVER,
PARTICULARLY AFTER THE UKRAINIAN
CALL.
CALL. THE IDEA THAT HE WOULD SAY IN
THE MONTHS AFTER THE 2016
ELECTION TO THE RUSSIANS, IT’S
OKAY BECAUSE WE DO THINGS LIKE
THAT AND OTHER ELECTIONS, HE’S
GOING TO BE A CANDIDATE AGAIN.
IT’S A GREEN LIGHT TO DO THE
SAME THING AGAIN.
WE HAVE NOW A PATTERN OF
PRACTICE OF NOT JUST SAYING
WEIRD THINGS TO OTHER COUNTRIES.
WE HAVE A PATTERN OF THE
PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, ASKING
OTHER COUNTRIES TO INTERVENE.
WE NOW KNOW HE BASICALLY TRIED
TO EXTORT THE UKRAINIANS INTO
DIGGING UP DIRT ON BIDEN.
IN A FEW SHORT MONTHS, HE’S
TELLING THE RUSSIANS IT’S OKAY
WHAT YOU DID IN THE PAST.
I’M ALSO THE BEST FRIEND YOU
COULD POSSIBLY HAVE, WINK, WINK,
NOD, NOD, MAYBE YOU COULD DO IT
AGAIN.
AGAIN. >> RICK WILSON, ONE OF THE
MISSED POINTS BY A LOT OF PEOPLE
COVERING WHAT HAPPENED IN THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE HEARING
THIS WEEK IS ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN IS NO
REPUBLICAN ON THAT COMMITTEE
DEFENDED WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID
ON THE TELEPHONE TO THE
PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE, WHICH IS
WHAT THAT HEARING WAS ABOUT.
NOW, THOSE REPUBLICANS DID MAKE
FAMILIAR-SOUNDING NOISES
FAMILIAR-SOUNDING NOISES ATTACKING DEMOCRATS.
ATTACKING DEMOCRATS. THEY DEFENDED THE WITNESS.
THEY SOUNDED LIKE REPUBLICANS.
THEY SOUNDED DIFFERENT FROM THE
DEMOCRATIC SIDE.
DEMOCRATIC SIDE. BUT ON THE EVIDENTIARY ELEMENTS
OF THE HEARING, THEY DID NOT
DISAGREE ABOUT ANYTHING
INVOLVING THAT PHONE CALL.
SO DONALD TRUMP SO FAR HAS NO
DEFEERS IN THE CONGRESSIONAL
RECORD ON HIS PHONE CALL WITH
THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE.
ANYONE WHO’S THINKING ABOUT
DEFENDING THE PRESIDENT IS NOW
READING TONIGHT IN "THE NEW YORK
TIMES," READING TONIGHT IN "THE
WASHINGTON POST," OH, THEY’RE
HIDING THE CONVERSATIONS WITH
PUTIN, THEY’RE HIDING THE
CONVERSATIONS WITH THE SAUDI
ROYAL FAMILY, THEY ARE HIDING
THE CONVERSATION THAT DONALD
TRUMP WAS NEVER EVEN GOING TO
TELL US HAPPENED WITH THE
RUSSIANS IN THE OVAL OFFICE IN
THE FOURTH MONTH OF HIS
PRESIDENCY.
PRESIDENCY. IF YOU WERE THINKING ABOUT
GETTING OUT THERE AND DEFENDING
DONALD TRUMP, YOU’RE GOING TO
HAVE TO THINK AGAIN.
>> IN ’73 REPUBLICANS WERE
SCREAMING ALL DAY IT’S A
CONSPIRACY BY THE LIBERAL NEWS
MEDIA.
MEDIA. AND IN ’74 THEY HIT THE BRAKES
--
-- >> FOR THE KIDS, HE MEANS 1973,
THE INVESTIGATION OF RICHARD
NIXON.
NIXON. 1974, THE IMPEACHMENT
INVESTIGATION OF NIXON NOIRKS,RI
WHICH HE EVENTUALLY RESIGNS.
>> THE SENSE IN CIRCLES RIGHT
NOW, THE DEADLY SILENCE OF MITCH
McCONNELL IS A VERY TELLING
MOMENT.
MOMENT. AND THE FACT THAT YOU DON’T HAVE
THE USUAL CONSPIRACY BOOBs
RUNNING AROUND, JIM JORDAN AND
MATT GATES AND FREDO NUNEZ ALL
THESE KOOKS SCREAMING WITH THEIR
HAIR ON FIRE, THEY RECOGNIZE
THIS ISN’T ECHOS OF A REPORT OF
RUMORS FROM THE STEELE DOSSIER.
THIS IS THE PRESIDENT ADMITTING
THAT HE MADE THIS ASK.
GIVING THE TRANSCRIPT OUT AND IT
HAS OPEN UP THE GATES OF HELL
FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION.
BECAUSE RIGHT NOW ALL THESE
PEOPLE FROM INSIDE THE WHITE
HOUSE ARE NOW LEAKING THESE
THINGS THAT HE’S BEEN HIDING
THESE TRANSCRIPTS THAT ARE
DAMNING TO HIM.
THIS RUSSIAN STORY THAT HAS
BROKEN TONIGHT IS UTTERLY
DAMNING BECAUSE HE HAD
REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE HOME
OFFICE IN MOSCOW AND WHAT HE DID
HE DO?
HE DO? HE ACTED LIKE A WHIPPED DOG.
IT’S FINE, DON’T WORRY.
WE DO THE SAME THING.
THAT’S NOT HOW A PRESIDENT ACTS.
THAT’S HOW A TRAITOR ACTS.
>> EVELYN, SEEMS LIKE THIS THE
WEEK OF COVERAGE FEELS LIKE THAT
FIRST WEEK OF COVERING THE
COLLAPSE OF THE BERLIN WALL.
THE BERLIN WALL COMING DOWN, IT
WAS THAT MOMENT THAT WE ALL SAW,
WE WERE STARTLED BY WAIT A
MINUTE THERE WON’T BE PEOPLE
ACTUALLY CLIMBING UP ON THE
BERLIN WALL FOR WHICH YOU USED
TO GET SHOT.
AND THEY’RE CLIMBING UP AND THEN
SUDDENLY THEY’RE DANCING ON THE
BER LINE WALL.
SUDDENLY THEY’RE PULLING IT
APART BRICK BY BRICK, STONE BY
STONE.
STONE. AND EVENTUALLY TAKING IT ALL THE
WAY DOWN TO NOTHING.
THIS SEEMS LIKE THE BEGINNING OF
THAT WEEK WHERE EVERY DAY AND
NOW TODAY, EVERY HOUR OF TODAY
THERE IS A NEW CRACK IN THIS
WALL.
WALL. >> I AGREE.
AND I LOVE YOUR ANALOGY, YOUR
EXAMPLE AS THE CHILD OF THE
HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION, MY PARENTS
BOTH LEFT AFTER THE HUNGARIAN
REVOLUTION FAILED.
REVOLUTION FAILED. THAT WAS A FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY.
WHEN THE WALL FELL, THEY WERE
ESSENTIALLY SAYING WE WANT
DEMOCRACY.
DEMOCRACY. INSIDE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT RIGHT
NOW YOU HAVE ONE BY ONE
PATRIOTIC GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS
SAYING WE WANT TO DEFEND OUR
DEMOCRACY, AND THEY’RE FINDING
STRENGTH IN NUMBERS.
AND YES, IT’S SNOW BALLING, AS
YOU SAID.
YOU SAID. >> LET ME EXTEND THIS BERLIN
WALL COMPARISON A BIT.
A YEAR EARLIER, THOSE PEOPLE WHO
WERE DANCING ON THE BERLIN WALL
FOR TERRIFIED OF GOING NEAR THE
BERLIN WALL.
BERLIN WALL. A YEAR AGO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
LEAKING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES,"
LEAKING TO "THE WASHINGTON POST"
TONIGHT ABOUT THE PRESIDENT’S
CONVERSATIONS WERE TERRIFIED OF
DOING THAT OR CERTAINLY WERE
EXTREMELY RELUCTANT TO DO IT.
IT TOOK UNTIL NOW, IT TOOK THE
CRACKS IN THE WALL.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THE
DEATH THROWS ARE GOING TO GO ON
FOR A WHILE.
I’M NOT SURE THAT THE WHOLE
THING IS GOING TO COLLAPSE ON
TRUMP RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HE DOES
STILL HAVE AN ENTIRE CABLE
NETWORK, ALTHOUGH THERE’S
DISSENSION AT FOX, BUT HE HAS A
LOT OF PEOPLE WILLING TO CARRY
WATER FOR HIM.
SO IT’S GOING TO GET VERY UGLY
THIS FALL, BUT THE ORDER OF
BATTLE IS CHANGING.
AND ALSO THE UKRAINE STORY AND
THE RUSSIA STORY ARE KIND OF
CONVERGING, THEY’RE COMING
TOGETHER.
TOGETHER. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
DEPARTMENT GET VERY MUCH
ATTENTION THIS WEEK IS WHEN
TRUMP SAID TO ZELENSKY AT THE
U.N. I WANT YOU TO MAKE A DEAL
WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.
>> WITH RUSSIA.
>> THIS WAS A TRULY NUTTY THING.
THIS WOULD BE LIKE, YOU KNOW,
FDR SAYING TO BELGIUM AFTER THE
BLITZKRIEG LIKE I WANT YOU TO
MAKE A DEAL WITH HITLER AFTER HE
JUST OVERRAN.
JUST OVERRAN. SO WHAT WAS THEIR END GAME?
I THINK FOR TRUMP IT’S TO LIFT
SANCTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT THE
RUSSIANS WANT.
RUSSIANS WANT. SO HE AND THE RUSSIANS ARE ON
THE SAME PAGE.
WHY DOES HE WANT TO LIFT
SANCTIONS AND DO THAT FAVOR?
TO PAY THEM BACK FOR WINNING THE
2016 ELECTION.
2016 ELECTION. THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL QUID PRO
QUO IN TRUMP TOWER IN 2016.
HE STILL OWES PUTIN ON THAT,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? BECAUSE PUTIN DID HIM A FAVOR
AND HE HASN’T REPAID THE FAVOR
YET.
YET. SO THAT’S ALSO GOING ON HERE.
>> GOOD POINT.
NEERA, ON THE ONE STORY PIECE
HERE, IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP AND VLADIMIR PUTIN,
AND THE PHONE CALL WITH ZELENSKY
WITH THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE IS
ALSO ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND
VLADIMIR PUTIN.
VLADIMIR PUTIN. >> I MEAN, THE FIRST, SECOND,
AND THIRD ORDER OF BUSINESS IS
TO DO WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE DONE A
LONG TIME AGO, WHICH IS TO GET
THE PUTIN CALL, TO GET THE
TRANSCRIPT OF THE CALL, HIS
PUBLIC BEHAVIOR WAS BASICALLY
INSANE.
INSANE. HE’S BASICALLY KOWTOWING TO
PUTIN IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS.
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT HE DID
BEHIND THE CAMERAS.
THE ONE THING I WOULD SAY JUST
ABOUT REPUBLICANS VERY BRIEFLY,
THEY DON’T KNOW WHERE THE BOTTOM
IS.
IS. THAT IS THE PROBLEM DONALD
TRUMP BECAUSE WHEN THEY DON’T
KNOW WHERE THE FLOOR IS OR THE
GROUND IS, IT WILL FREEZE THEM
INTO CONTINUING THE
INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. THE LONGER THEY ALLOW THESE
INVESTIGATIONS TO CONTINUE, STAY
SILENT, THE LONGER AND GREATER
OPPOSITION WILL GROW IN THE
PARTY.
PARTY. >> REPUBLICAN SENATORS STILL
TELLING REPORTERS THEY HAVE NOT
READ THE WHISTLEBLOWER’S REPORT
AND THEY HAVE NOT READ THE PHONE