...our religion. Okay? But we don't claim that it was written by God,
and that's okay. that's, we can... we have different venues of faith.
We have different ways to approach this.
Okay. So why... Okay, sorry.
So,
to me, you're,
you're now like, if we take this into consideration with what you said before.
With what you said with the, with this building that you, that we're
talking about. So now you say you've got the thesis there that says
like, this book was or was in some way authored by God, or divine spirit, or whatever.
So yeah...
But... I could construct such a verse.
No, there is an objective criteria.
Like, remember I told you, Ad-Duhaa.
There is sixteen different
in Arabic language.
All the problems... What the challenge is telling you, is produce a chapter like.
That's it. Nobody can.
See it's objec... See the Quran is not challenging, "Bring something more beautiful."
As per described. That's subjective. The Quran is telling you to
Yeah, okay. But still that to me doesn't... I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove anything.
No no, you missed the next verse. He says: "The Quran makes the claim, you will never be able to do it."
Yeah.
Okay? Which human being ever makes the claim like that? If I was still...
Usain bolt for example, he says that: "I'm the fastest man."
Would you ever say: "No,
Never. Why? This is relative.
Still, doesn't....
I think, if I may explain it. You know that bottle that he's got in his hands?
Just imagine he makes the claim: "You cannot make a bottle like this, exactly like it."
Similar to it, or similar to it.
Yeah, but...
And you bring a bottle similar, how can he
he make a claim like that? Because you think like: "Why is it impossible?
But the way the Qur'anic
challenge is something that is if you appreciate the nature of the challenge, you'll realize
only when you know the objective nature of the challenge,
He is better than me.
Because when it comes to prose and
poetry and any literature, any genre of you know linguistics, it doesn't make sense to us to think
that "Why is it not imitable? We can imitate it. We can imitate Shakespeare, we can imitate
you know, homer, we can anyone." That's how human beings think, because this is just composition,
you know. There might be someone out there bright enough, clever enough, intelligent enough to make
imitations of things. Okay? So if you have Beethoven, with his you know, very interesting symphony.
You can get someone imitating this, it's not a problem. That' how we think. But the Quran is
in a particular linguistic genre, and yet it came with a particular composition
that on the service level, you think it's possible. But when you look at the objective challenge,
then when you find out that you cannot.
Only when you scrutinize it (x2)
closely enough, then you'll realize it, that you can't match it. That you can't actually
bring something like it because it becomes something you know nonsensical, it doesn't
make a meaningful sentence. So when you have a composition of a particular structure of a sentence,
If I'm speaking to you now so far, I hope that I haven't made any grammatical mistakes
in the English language. But if I...You know,
I said something like this in such a way that
you realize I'm making grammatical mistakes, I'm not speaking English anymore.
Then you will say it's not making much sense.
Gradually and gradually, you can start speaking gibberish.
Did I speak English to you?
You immediately think like: "This didn't sound like English."
It sounded like what?
I don't know. I was just making gibberish statements.
So if I made a gibberish statement like that and I said: "That was English and make it- imitate it."
Would you be able to?
Because you didn't even know how- what are you imitating.
So the Quran came in Arabic language,
meaningful, eloquent, beautiful, all of that. Yet the structure and the composition is such that,
it is not possible. So that's why, if you have given the example of a building,
Yeah.
Well, to appreciate that,
so that, this is one example because I think it hits the point, you know;
and it makes sense. Imagine this fence, right? You've got this fence. See how solid it is.
Imagine I told you all of this fence, you see, this is like- you know, my hand goes through.
But actually, it's solid, but it's transparent, whatever the word you want to use.
And if I say bring something like it and yet like- he's kneeling on it and yet my hand just goes through it,
like if I did that.
You won't be able to bring something like it. You won't be able to. Because you know that
this structure, this material that is now, looks transparent, and it just might you know-
What's the word? Like it goes through it and yet he's kneeling on it, you can- you know, put something like that.
You know like the invisibility cloth in Harry Potter.
Yeah. So
if you knew the reality of that by close observation,
you would know that you cannot meet. You cannot imitate, something, you can't manifest something like that.
Quran, unfortunately for the people who don't believe, is of such a nature that it presents to
them an obstacle of an intellectual challenge. And that's why the Quran actually challenges people,
In fact, this is (Arabic), the challenge of the Quran.
If you are in doubt, then produce something like it.
Whole book like it, ten chapters like it, or one chapter like it.
The Quran gives you all of these-
How so? For all of these years, people studying Arabic language at Sawas
they are. Harvard? Yes, they are.
In all the major universities in the world,
where there are Arabic language being studied,
why aren't those professors of Arabic language, who were not Muslims-
-say: "Okay, let me make a small composition like three lines, the smallest chapter of the Quran."?
Why are they unable?
I was going to say, we're about to leave.
I was going to have one last question just like- like genuine and interest in, like.
Sure.
Please do. But the point on this, so let me just summarize that.
This is a what we call, a falsification test for the Quran. Like he's been telling you,
the Quran gives its own falsification test, once you apply it, if it doesn't fulfill this criteria,
you can reject it; because you know it cannot be from God.
But if you cannot falsify it, like with this test
and it still stands, then you really seriously have to consider; how so? Because only God can make or
produce or reveal a book like it.
I gave you two references, even from non-Arabic speakers,
and they mastered the Arabic language that, for example you have professor Raymond Farrow, you have Dr. Mcbride.
They appreciate the challenge, and they have to resort by to states divine revolution
My last question, as a genuine interest in like the history of Islam.
Where do you believe that like the people first found the Quran?
Where was the first instance of
He is better fit to answer you.
Yeah, of course.
You need to elaborate your question further.
Because in our belief, maybe when I explain what we believe, it may answer your question.
So we believe for the 40 years of- so of his life of the prophet Muhammed (PBUH), of course, he did not
receive any divine revelation. He was someone who is called hanif, in a way someone who has
the natural inclination already to believe in a super being, almighty, be upright and not to worship
idols and so on and so forth. Okay?
But at the age of 40, God revealed through an angel, a medium,
this revelation. So when he was 40 years old, this is he received, about five or so verses, first verses,
In the surah (recites Surah Al-Alaq)
is how you start, "Read in the name of your lord, who created-
"Read in the name of your lord, who created."
This is the first revelation of the Quran.
Not believe, but recite, proclaim, read. That makes the difference between every other religion about faith,
in Islam is about how we come to believe by studying, reading, reflecting, acquiring knowledge.
So then the story goes like, he went you know, down from the mountain because he was in a cave contemplating,
and he was with his wife and said: "Cover me up." Because he was shaking of this experience.
So with this encounter, this was the first revelation. Eventually, you know he was getting
more and more revelation and then angel Gabriel, who revealed the Quran to him, was com- explaining to him
and comforting him saying he is the messenger of revelation, the angel, revealing to him.
And then the prophet started getting scribes to write them down, because he did not know how to read and write.
So historically speaking, the Quran got written down during the presence of the prophet
by professional scribes and they were memorizing it. Yeah? So you have two forms of transmission of
the text. One is by graphic form, the written form. And one is by preservation through the heart
to the memory. So that continued and we can now direct you to manuscripts of the Quran in museums,
in libraries, in private hands. Well, are they all within the first century of Islam?
More than 90-
I don't know, almost you know numbers going, two, three, four, five percent like these numbers
increasing, of the whole of the text of the Quran, we have percentage-wise,
From the first hundred years of Islam.
Compared to some other religious texts, which you have zero percent.
Like the Bible, for example.
Yeah, if you want to name that. There's nothing within the first century of Christ,
in terms of revelation. But we have now this Qur'anic text,
obtained from manuscripts around the world and so on. Birmingham manuscript, only a few pages
very early, from the first century of Islam. You know in UK, we have in UK. Can you believe that?
In Birmingham library. So textual transmission has a robust history, where we can be sure that
it hasn't undergone some corruption, and like- because if you want to know whether this is indeed
the pure unadulterated divine revelation, you have to have some element of knowledge about historical
transmission. And you can see that Ramadan just been only- How many days ago?
Two weeks ago.
In this month of Ramadan, all around the world, the whole Quran was being recited, from beginning to
end, cover to cover, word for word, letter for letter, sound for sound, vowel for vowels, by someone from
memory. All of it. Throughout the Masajids, mosques around the world. Hundreds and thousands,
if not, you know so many. And the Quran is- this is the way how it's been preserved.
So that you can be at least sure that the Quran that if we were to offer you one-
You know that. Okay.
I'm pretty much sure that's what the prophet, who claimed to be a prophet of God,
that is what he left behind.
Yeah.
Okay. That's a great answer. Thank you very much.
And thank you very much for your time.
What are your names? (x2)
Lucas.
Kate. Very pleasure speaking to you.
So if we have somehow given you an introduction to
Islam and the Quran, so we hope you take this forward.
Thank you.
Have a good Sunday.
You too.