( BAND PLAYING )( CHEERS AND APP >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY!
WELCOME BACK TO "THE LATE SHOW."
I'M STILL ME.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS THE CHIEF
WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT FOR ABC NEWS, AND AUTHOR OF THE
NEW BOOK, "BETRAYAL."
PLEASE WELCOME, JONATHAN KARL!
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) ( BAND PLAYING )
>> Stephen: HEY!
NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> YEAH, YEAH.
>> Stephen: HAVE WE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE THAT WHEN YOU
STARTED CNN YOU WERE ONE TO HAVE THE YOUNG GUNS.
>> GENERATION X TEAM, YEAH.
>> Stephen: HOW LONG AGO WAS THAT THAT YOU WERE YOUNG?
>> 47 YEARS AGO.
>> Stephen: BECAUSE YOU'RE HOW OLD NOW?
>> 53.
>> Stephen: AND I'M 57.
I'M YOUNG ADJACENT.
>> I USED TO BE THE YOUNG GUY, TOO.
>> Stephen: I WAS THE NEW GUY AT ONE POINT.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: LET'S MOVE ON.
( LAUGHTER ) YOUR NEW BOOK, "BETRAYAL," IS
ABOUT JANUARY 6 AND THE EVENTS THAT LED UP TO IT.
BEFORE WE GET INTO THE DETAILS OF THE EVENTS AND SOME OF THE
REVELATIONS OF YOUR BOOK, WHAT DID IT FEEL LIKE FOR YOU AS
SOMEONE IN WASHINGTON TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICS WHEN
THAT DAY HAPPENED?
>> I WAS HEARTBROKEN.
I SPENT MOST OF MY CAREER COVERING CONGRESS.
LOOK, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU WALK INTO THAT PLACE, I
MEAN, I STILL FEEL A SENSE OF AWE.
WHEN I WAS A LITTLE KID AND I WOULD VISIT WITH MY FAMILY, I
WOULD LOOK TO SEE IF THE LIGHT WAS ON -- ON TOP TO HAVE THE
DOME, THAT WOULD MEAN CONGRESS WAS IN SESSION AND I WOULD WANT
TO GO IN AND SEE IT.
TO SEE THE PEOPLE BREAKING IN AND RUMMAGING AROUND ON THE
SENATE FLOOR WAS ABSOLUTELY HEARTBREAKING.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS BEING VIOLATED BEYOND THE
PHYSICAL SPACE?
>> IT WAS A DIRECT ASSAULT ON OUR DEMOCRACY, IT REALLY WAS.
IT'S NOT JUST WORDS.
THEY WERE TRYING TO STOP THE CROWN JEWEL OF AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY WHICH IS THE PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER.
LAST THE LAST STEP IN CERTIFYING THE PLEACHES AND THEY WERE
DIRECTLY TRYING TO STOP IT.
THEY WEREN'T JUST VANDALIZING AND GOING THROUGH, THEY WERE
TRYING TO STOP WHAT MAKES AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY.
BY THE WAY, THEY ALMOST SUCCEEDED.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS IN THIS BOOK, AS I RESEARCHED IT, I CAME
TO REALIZE THAT WE WERE FAR CLOSER TO LOSING IT ALL THAN I
REALIZED AT THE TIME.
I WAS FREAKED OUT AS WE ALL WERE AT THE TIME BUT IT WAS WORSE.
>> Stephen: WHAT'S THE THING THAT MOST SHOCKED YOU IN
REPORTING FOR THIS BOOK?
WHAT GOT US CLOSE THAN YOU IMAGINED?
>> IF A FEW PEOPLE HAD ACTUALLY DONE WHAT TRUMP DEMANDED OFok
THEM, IT COULD HAVE FLIPPED THE OTHER WAY.
THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO BASICALLY SAVED OUR DEMOCRACIER BUT
THEY'RE NOT YOUR TRADITIONA HEAROS.
MANY ARE LONG-TIME REPUBLICAN PARTISANS WHO DID WHAT HE WANTED
BUT WHEN IT CAME TO THIS MOMENT THEY STOPPED.
DID YOU THINK PENCE WOULD BE THE GUY TO STAND UP TO TRUMP?
>> Stephen: NO.
HE WAS THE MAN WHO WOULD TAKE HIS WATER BOTTLE OFF THE TABLE
IF TRUMP DID.
>> HE WAS DISLOYAL WHEN IT COUNTED THE MOST.
SOME OTHERS WERE IN SOME WAYS POLITICAL HACKS WHO STOOD STRONG
AND DID THE RIGHT THING AT THE RIGHT MOMENT.
>> Stephen: AS SOMEONE WHO REPORTS IN WASHINGTON CAN YOU
CALL PEOPLE POLITICAL HACKS?
>> I DIDN'T NEIGHBOR ANYBODY.
>> Stephen: BUT WE KNOW HOW YOU FEEL.
>> I MEAN THAT IN A GOOD WAY.
>> Stephen: SURE, WE ALWAYS DO.
I'VE SEEN THE SHOW.
IT'S BRILLIANT.
( LAUGHTER ) THE NEXT QUESTION, AS PAINFUL AS
THAT DAY WAS, IT IS ALREADY BEING CAST AS A DAY IN HISTORY
AND I'M CURIOUS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO KNOW
BETTER WHO ARE NOW TRYING TO REFRAME THAT DAY AS NOT A
VIOLATION OF OUR DEMOCRACY AND AS MERELY A PROTEST AND AS AN
ONGOING GAS LIGHTING THEY'RE TRYING TO TELL US WHAT WE SAW WE
DID NOT SEE AND PREVENT OUR ABILITY TO STOP IT FROM
HAPPENING AGAIN, I BELIEVE.
THAT'S AN ONGOING THING, THAT'S NOT AN HISTORICAL FEELING, IT'S
AN ONGOING EVENT.
>> IT'S ONGOING, IT'S HAPPENING NOW, IT'S OUTRAGEOUS.
IT DROVE ME EVERY DAY AS I WAS WRITING THE BOOK.
I WANTED TO GET THE HISTORY DOWN IN A WAY THAT WOULD BE
INDISPUTABLE.
I WOULD TRY TO WRITE IT IN A WAY THAT EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE
SYMPATHETIC TO TRUMP AND BELIEVED THE THINGS HE WAS
SAYING WOULD SEE, NO, THAT'S A LIE.
I WENT THROUGH AND LOOKED AT THE STUFF HE WAS SAYING AND WENT
THROUGH IN DETAIL AND EXPLAINED WHY IT'S COMPLETE NONSENSE, A
COMPLETE LIE.
AND TO SEE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE DAY AND TRUMP HIMSELF -- I MEAN,
WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM FOR THE BOOK TALKING ABOUT IT WAS SOME
KIND OF GLORIOUS DAY, JANUARY 6th.
>> Stephen: YOU REVEAL IN THE BOOK THAT AS HE WAS LEAVING
OFFICE, I THINK ON JANUARY 20th, ABOUT TO GET ON
AIR FORCE ONE AND LEAVE FOR THE LAST TIME, HE TOLD RONALD
McDANIEL, I'M DONE, I'M STARTING MY OWN PARTY.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: HOW DID THEY STOP HIM?
>> THIS WAS AMAZING.
THIS WAS ACTUALLY WHEN HE WALKED UP THE STEPS TO AIR FORCE ONE
FOR HIS LAST FLIGHT ON THE PLANE TO GO TO FLORIDA, HE GETS INTO
HIS OFFICE AT THE FRONT OF THE PLANE BEFORE THE PLANE TAKES OFF
AND McDANIEL WAS CALLING HIM.
SHE WASN'T AT HIS FAREWELL CEREMONY, JUST TO SAY THANK YOU,
GOOD LUCK, AND THAT'S WHEN HE DROPPED THIS BOMB.
THE WAY THEY STOPPED HIM FROM LEAVING THE PARTY IS ESSENTIALLY
MADE A SERIES OF THREATS, OF WARNINGS, AND SAID IF HE DID IT
IT WOULD COST HIM TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
THERE WERE LEGAL BILLS THE RNC WERE PAYING THAT WOULD NOW BE
HIS TO PAY AND THEY WOULD TAKE HIS BIG 40 MILLION NAME EMAIL
LIST AND THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE IT WORTHLESS, TAKE CONTROL AND
GIVE IT OUT FOR FREE SO HE COULDN'T RENT IT ANYMORE.
>> Stephen: HE'S A BUSINESSMAN.
>> IT WAS GOING TO COST HIM TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND HE
BACKED DOWN FOUR OR FIVE DAYS AFTER JANUARY 20th.
HE TOLD THEM HE WAS LEAVING.
HE WASN'T SAYING I MIGHT, HE SAID I'M DONE, I'M GONE, I'M
STARTING MY OWN PARTY, AND HE BACKED DOWN.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK.
DON'T GO ANYWHERE.
WHEN WE COME BACK, I'LL ASK JONATHAN INTERESTING NEWS ABOUT
MIKE PENCE THAT I DID NOT KNOW AND NEITHER DID YOU BUT YOU
SHOULD.
STICK AROUND.
( BAND PLAYING ) ( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )