Stephen Miller,
Trump's White House
senior adviser and speechwriter,
testified today.
Grant, a federal,
testified today
before a federal grand
jury in the January 6th investigation.
He is now the first
known witness to testify
since the Justice Department
appointed a special counsel.
So, Caitlin, you broke this story.
Tell us more.
Well, Stephen Miller has always been
a very important and close adviser
to Donald Trump in the White House.
At the end of the presidency,
after the election
and up to
and including on January six,
he was his speechwriter.
And so what Miller would be able
to talk to the grand jury
about what we know.
He's already talked
to the separate House investigation
about
is how Trump's
speech came about on January six
to his supporters,
the crowd that eventually rioted
at the Capitol chanting Hang Mike Pence.
And one of the things that we know
from public
reporting from the House Select
Committee previously
is that
Miller talked to Trump
about what
he was going to say about Pence.
It appears they had a phone call.
And then after that phone call,
the morning of January six,
Donald Trump
did want to put lines in his speech
about Mike Pence,
about how they needed Pence
to block the election result.
And so this is
the first person that we have identified
who went into the grand jury
after the appointment
of special counsel, grand
special counsel, Jack Smith.
It clearly is showing us
how this criminal investigation
in the federal court
system is really moving along
at quite a clip
and really focusing around Donald Trump
and what was happening,
what he was saying
inside the White House.
Kate and Caitlin,
there's also there's a bit more
I need to ask you about as well.
We're also hearing that tonight
that Donald Trump's former
chief of staff,
Mark Meadows, he's
been ordered to testify.
And the other investigation
and the investigation in Georgia
that's investigating the efforts
to overturn the 2020 election there.
What does this mean
for that case tonight?
Well, this was an order
from the Supreme Court
of South Carolina today,
and it basically said
that any arguments, the arguments so far
that Mark Meadows had made
in this separate
criminal probe in Georgia,
they were manifestly without merit
that he would need to show up
and testify.
The reason that investigation
is so interested in Mark Meadows
is that he was privy to a call
between the then president, Donald Trump,
and the secretary of state in Georgia
pressuring to find votes.
He also was in meetings
in December of 2020.
And so he became a person
that they really have wanted
to get insight into.
Now, one of the things
that when you step back from this
and try to look at the big import
here is Georgia.
This investigation
is one of the tips of the spear, right.
There's many investigations going on.
And so what
they get first,
other investigations
may also try to pursue and get as well.
Kate, great point.
It's good to see you, Caitlyn.
Thanks for the reporting. Appreciate it.
OUTFRONT with me now is Evan Perez, CNN
senior justice
correspondent, Ryan Goodman, editor
in chief of just security and former
special counsel
at the Defense Department.
And CNN legal analyst Ellie Hoenig,
who's a former assistant U.S.
attorney for the Southern District
of New York.
Ryan, let's start with the big news
in the verdict tonight.
When it comes to the Oath Keepers
and the Oath Keepers founder, Stewart
Rhodes, guilty
on the most serious charge
associated with January six.
How significant is this?
So I think it's a very big deal.
It's a historical moment
for the country
to have a jury
find the leader of a militia group
in the United States guilty
of trying to use violence to interfere
with the peaceful transfer of power.
And I think it's also super important
for what comes next,
which is the next militia group.
The proud boys are also going
to go on trial,
their leaders, for the same charge.
And I think they have to
have been watching this very closely.
And their lawyers must have
a very serious conversation with them
now about whether or not
they do want to flip
and cooperate with the government.
Now, seeing that
the Justice Department
can succeed
in bringing a successful case
to a point of conviction
for the leaders
and in fact, is even stronger evidence
when it comes to the proud boys.
I think that's a big implication of this.
That's a really
there's a really great point.
And Evan Ryan calls a historic.
How big is this for
for the Justice Department?
I mean, and why was it key for them
to get a guilty verdict
on seditious conspiracy?
Look, it was actually a pretty,
I think, controversial thing
inside the Justice Department
as they waited and they worked towards
bringing this case.
If you remember, we reported that it was
Mike Sherwin who is a Trump appointed
acting U.S.
attorney here in D.C.
who first tried to bring these charges.
And when Merrick Garland took over
at the Justice Department,
he put it on hold
and had them work some more.
Another six, seven months
before he approved
for those charges to come forward again.
They didn't know.
They thought it was a risky thing to do.
And then there was a second thing here,
the other charges here,
which is the the
the obstruction
of a congressional proceeding.
There was some doubt inside
the Justice Department
as to whether judges
might even allow that
those charges to go forward again.
Both of those things have gone forward.
Juries have now endorsed them.
And it really strengthens
the hand, as Ryan just pointed out,
with the in the Proud Boys case,
but also in the big case,
the case that that, frankly,
the Justice Department
is working towards,
which is
the one that Trump is at the center of.
You know, the question
of whether the former president
was impeding the transfer of power,
whether he was using
he was part of a conspiracy
to do that,
is part of what
the Justice Department is pursuing.
And this strengthens
their hand in that investigation.
Alan, can you weigh in on that?
Because I was really curious
and your perspective, is it clear to you
what this
this verdict kind of next steps,
what this means for Donald Trump?
Well, I think, first of all, big picture,
this is a forceful rejection
of many of the lies
Donald Trump
and others have told about the election
and about January six.
This is a rejection of the idea
that this was not organized, that
this was spontaneous, that
this was not serious, that
this was not violent,
and it was a rejection by a jury.
Our most basic
bulwark of liberty, of democracy here.
Juries are not stupid.
Juries can see through this.
And this jury was very careful.
More practically, Kate,
you could see it theoretically.
People flip.
I've seen plenty of times
when someone has said,
let me go to trial, see what happens
then when you get convicted
and you're looking down the barrel
of a 20 year sentence,
that can change incentives a little bit.
So we don't know if that may happen,
but if so,
we'll see what dominoes may fall.
But I think anyone around
this should be concerned about that.
And Ryan, the other big news
that we were just talking
about with Caitlin Paul
and her reporting is that former
top Trump aide Stephen Miller,
he is now
testified today
before the federal grand jury
investigating January 6th.
And Miller was really tight in there.
I mean, he has firsthand knowledge
on some key moments,
preparation and intent of the speech,
the intent of what Donald Trump
was looking to do in presenting this
and giving his speech to his supporters,
who then turned around
and then attacked the Capitol.
Where do you see this going?
So he is the kind of person who can get
into the mindset
of Donald Trump on January six,
putting to the Select Committee,
he has a conversation with Trump
for over 25 minutes about the speech
and introduces.
It does sound like the at least
some of the language and Mike Pence
then Stephen Miller says
and he says to the committee
that he spoke to Erik Hersman,
one of the lawyers who said,
get that stuff out of the speech.
And then after Trump has a confrontation
with Pence, even more of it comes in.
So I'm sure
he must have had some conversation
with Trump over there's 25 minutes
plus to say,
what are you trying to get at?
What are you trying to produce here?
And we now know that he said that to
the committee is a very good chance.
He claimed executive privilege
and like others did.
But it sounds like
the wall of executive privilege
has fallen apart
when it comes to the grand jury.
And the fact that he's been testifying
as a senior
aide to the president,
I think is very significant
in terms of the type of evidence
he can get
when we've heard it over and over again,
which is, you know,
what you say to the January
six committee,
very different
standard of
what is expected of you,
when required of you,
when you're sitting before a grand jury,
of course, a federal grand jury.
Ellie, you've
long said
when it comes to Mark Meadows,
that he is also key
to nearly every investigation
involving Donald Trump.
And this is another big deal
for that investigation in Georgia.
It is, Kate.
Mark Meadows, in my view,
is the most important
single witness here.
He was by Donald Trump's side
throughout the run up to January six.
He was on that famous call
or infamous call with Brad Raffensperger.
And today, Mark Meadows
learned the hard way
that a grand jury subpoena
that he got from Fulton
County is very different
from a congressional subpoena.
Mark Meadows
essentially brushed off
the congressional subpoena.
He was never even charged with contempt.
He had no consequences.
Well,
he learned today from the South Carolina
Supreme Court unanimously
you cannot brush off
a grand jury subpoena.
And now he will have to go down
to Atlanta, into Georgia
and testify under oath
in front of that grand jury.
And the D.A.
is is going to have
some really crucial questions to ask him.
And he's got to be truthful
or else he's
looking at a potential perjury charge.
So this is a big step,
a lot of big steps this evening
and also a long list of names
we're getting out.
Evan, I mean, there's a long list
of Trump aides and those close to him
around some key moments
that have been ordered to testify
before the Fulton County grand jury.
We now have Mark Meadows,
we have Rudy Giuliani,
we have Michael Flynn, Boris Epstein,
Lindsey Graham as well, being being told
he's going to need to speak
to in that investigation.
It just seems to keep going and going.
And to what?
To what end?
I mean, where is this head all headed?
Well, I think, you know,
the Justice Department
has not really said
who the target of that investigation is.
But as you can see from that list
that you just gave,
those are the ones that have gone to the
to the grand jury in Georgia.
Those are
those are the same names,
some of the same people
that the Justice Department
is interested in.
And that makes clear
that the man at the center of all
this is Donald Trump.
And so that what is very much clear,
the fact
now that you have a special counsel
focusing on this investigation.
And Kate, it's good to see you all.
Thanks so much for working
through all of that this evening.
A lot coming in.