In last week's episode, we talked about Magic
the Gathering and jazz as systems
which enable improvisation.
Let's see what you had to say.
Patrick Daly writes, uh, a really insightful comment.
And, you know, it's no surprise.
It seems like Patrick is someone who has some--
some experience with both jazz and Magic the Gathering
that sort of, I think, sets the tone
for a lot of what I ended up seeing in the comments and all
the conversation around this video-- which was great,
by the way.
There were-- we have an overabundance
of comments chosen for this comment response video.
So I want to apologize to both our editors
and possibly you guys for maybe uploading, like,
a 25 minute comment video.
It was very hard for me to choose a small number.
Um, but Patrick basically points out some, um--
some discrepancies, maybe, in the way
that we think about both Magic and jazz.
And I think without putting it too explicitly,
outlines how both of those things
are a lot-- sometimes a lot more complicated
than you give them credit.
And that, you know, jazz and the way improvisation
works in jazz and the fact that, you know,
improvisation exists in jazz isn't as clear as, oh,
people just make it up as they go along.
And that for Magic the Gathering,
it's not just as simple as, oh, there
is a central authority that, um, creates a set of cards
and a set of rules that people then play with,
um, in the same way over and over and over again.
Um, Patrick's final point is one that--that I think is really
interesting, and one that's--
that repays consideration.
And it's that while jazz does not have an owner, per se,
Magic the Gathering does.
And I think that this--
in Wizards of the Coast, the people who print the cards
and publish them and stuff.
And I think maybe, you know, the way around this idea
is some of the stuff that we'll talk about soon enough.
While Wizards of the Coast does own Magic the Gathering,
they don't own collectible card games as a system.
And so we've seen, um, a lot of people try to innovate on that,
and try to--
try to see where they can drive that system
into-- into other areas.
Um, and maybe that's a comparison to genres
or, you know, other stuff.
But yeah, this was a great-- a great comment,
and I think a great way to get started.
And Dynamics actually makes the related point
that it might be the card game industry that is like jazz,
and not Magic the Gathering itself.
Magic just being the early example,
the genre-defining example that people then iterate on,
or, you know, improve upon, change in order to innovate.
Um, Rehkyt on the subreddit makes the point
that, uh, particular play styles of Magic are jazz-like.
Uh, the specific example that they give is Commander.
Uh, and that other types of play styles within the-- within
Magic are other kinds of music, which I don't--
I don't know enough about the particular price--
play styles of Magic to show where these line up,
but I love--
I love this kind of exercise.
TheJcd wrote a great comment, and a comment that I was
hoping someone, uh, would make.
I actually-- I pinned this one, and a great discussion
followed.
And I--I highly recommend going and checking it out and see
what people think.
But, uh, TheJcd talked about how a lot of Magic
is about optimization, and putting together
a deck that does a specific set of things
in the most optimal way.
And how doing-- playing jazz is actually
more about doing what feels good and expressing oneself.
And I would say that, as someone who--
who played a fair amount of jazz semi-professionally, you know,
a number-- in another life, uh, I
think that there is actually also
a fair amount of optimization when playing music, especially
when improvising with other people,
and when trying to figure out how
to make a coherent statement, how
to progress through a piece of music, um,
in a way that is improvisatory.
Um, and that-- I think that that--
really what this outlines for me is that--
is that these things really change and shift depending
upon, uh, [LAUGHS] what you think
of as the-- as the defining example of the larger, um--
the larger system.
And that, I think-- you know, if you think of jazz
as the thing that is about just playing whatever
and doing what feels good, you know,
maybe that's like free jazz, sort of.
And that in comparison to playing Commander--
in comparison to playing Commander, that makes no sense.
Or in comparison to playing Standard, you know,
that doesn't-- that doesn't feel like that jives.
But that there are-- there are maybe deeper level
characteristics of both that you can find no matter what--
no matter what play style of either you're looking at.
Anyway, yeah, this is clearly huge, huge part
of the conversation.
Uh, highly recommend going and checking out the thread that
was inspired by this comment.
Malou, uh, though you do not make the direct comparison
between this description of Magic and the playing of jazz,
uh, as someone who, as I said in the last comment,
played jazz for a little while, this does hit a little close
to home.
[LAUGHS] Uh, good luck to all you jazz musicians out there.
I had a hard go at it.
[LAUGHS]
Ben, uh, I still--
I know I told some people on the internet
that I would put together a deck list, uh, for this deck that we
keep on the set that's from I believe 1994.
Uh, I haven't done it yet, but, uh, here.
I'm just gonna go through it.
We'll read a couple-- a couple cards
that I find so that you get a sense of what's in here.
Urza's Power Plant.
I got a Icy Manipulator which looks a little bit--
I mean, the art on that is upsetting.
Eladamri's Vineyard.
At the beginning of each player's main phase,
add two forests to that player's mana pool.
Just let me know when you get bored, because I'll keep going.
Absolute Law.
Uh, this is a-- this is definitely another one
that I thought just looked really dope.
I'm sure that I had no--
all creatures gain protection from red.
Oh, OK, actually, that's kinda cool.
Bunch of mountains, Fireball of course.
I mean, you know, of course.
You know, you-- you gotta have Fireball.
Oh, Terror.
Yeah, I remember really liking this one.
Um, [LAUGHS] it's not--
it's scary.
Dark Ritual is definitely, uh, some card art
that I would have aspired to look like when I, you know,
finally reached middle age.
So, uh, maybe there's a goatee in my future.
All right, well I'll, uh--
I'll make a final--
I'll try to remember to make a deck list.
Someone's gonna have to tell me how to do that.
I'll just call Patrick.
He'll tell me how to do it.
[LAUGHS] Matthew Henke makes a really great point
about the sort of commercialism side of the argument.
The-- the culture industry, uh, way
of looking at both jazz and Magic
the Gathering, um, which is that, uh, Magic is maybe
a lot like golf or lacrosse in that,
in order to play the game appropriately
at a contemporary level, or with other contemporary players,
there is an amount of investment that is basically required.
You can't play the game if you're not
continually investing in, um, new materials and modern,
uh, you know-- modern aspects of the game, modern parts.
Um, and I think that this is--
there were some discussion about this
on the subreddit too about, uh, whether or not
you could make this argument for jazz.
You know, in order to stay up on jazz,
do you have to keep buying new instruments?
Not really, but do you have to keep buying new pieces of music
to play?
Do you have to keep, uh, sort of sacrificing something in order
to, uh-- in order to play to a world class level?
And, uh, there was some discussion
about the commercial aspects of charts,
um, but I think that this-- this argument definitely rings true,
uh, for Magic, if it doesn't for,
uh-- if it doesn't for jazz.
Punk Patriot makes the point that Magic and jazz are really
not alike in the end because of the strictness of the rules.
Um, and that, while there might be, uh, rules sort of in jazz,
uh, you are encouraged to break them in a way that
is not the case in Magic.
Uh, that there is really a much more strict way of appreciating
improvisation in Magic than there is in comparison
with jazz, especially if you're looking at jazz,
you know, sort of writ more largely
than any specific maybe particularly free
improvisatory framework.
And I think that this is-- you know, in the end, this is--
this is a great point in one where the argument, like--
where the comparison between the two systems
starts to fail is that, you know, in-- in Magic,
there are rules so that there can be a winner.
Um, and in jazz, there are rules so that one is able to break
them and, you know, create a piece of--of expressive art.
Um, and I think that any-- any search for the same type
of rules, or for a kind of winner is--
would be to extend--
extend the analogy to places where it's not really
meant to go.
So yeah, it's a great sort of drawing off of the bounds.
William Levasseur makes a very interesting point--
one that never occurred to me, which is that Magic, you know,
it might be like jazz, it might be like other things.
But that is also maybe like the law.
Uh, and I think that you can see this in, uh--in a lot of games
with the existence of the word Rules Lawyering.
Um, but to just see it, uh, put out this way,
to see the idea presented, uh, as literally is this, uh,
was very-- yeah, um, intriguing.
Piqued my interest.
Thank you, William, for this comment.
How fitting is it that a culture like America's, fundamentally
based law, has so much love for a game that's basically two
made up pseudo-lawyers arguing about whether a fireball can
still get forked even if I just--
MAN: [LAUGHS]
--played a counter spell on it.
I don't even know that means, and that's great.
Johntheblack makes a really good point about the shop
culture that arose around Magic the Gathering,
and having to sort of-- you know,
you go play Friday night Magic.
If you wanna buy a certain card, uh, there is--
you know, there's a certain amount of, um, interaction,
or community that you're gonna have to interface with, um,
and asks whether or not that is the same thing as, uh, what has
happened in the jazz community.
Does-- did jazz allow a certain community of people
to come together, um, where they would not have otherwise?
And, um, Fenixius in response, uh,
points out that, you know, you could say that this is maybe
not something that is particular to jazz, that, you know,
maybe metal has done something really similar.
And, you know, I've been--
I've been thinking about this comment since I read it.
And I--I don't have a satisfying answer.
But I will say that-- that I think there is something about
the placehood of the game shop and the jazz club that feels
similar, um, in a--
in a way that is perhaps different from a metal
show or a punk rock show or, like, an art music show.
At least ones that I've been to.
Like, it's irresponsible for me to talk about-- you know,
talk for all of them.
Uh, but I think there is a kind of intimacy,
and a sense of people, like, working
through things, like doing--
doing work, uh, that exists in both the--the game shop
and the jazz club, um, as long as it's not Blue Note, um,
that feels related.
But like I said, I'm still clearly working this through.
But I think this is-- this is, like,
a part of this idea that I never even considered thinking
through, which is, you know, the places
that these things happen in, do they
reflect anything about how the two systems might be similar?
I-- yeah, this is a great-- a great question,
and a great comparison.
OtakuOlga very, very kindly exp--exp--[LAUGHS] explains
the Assemble, Contraptions joke, uh,
which Patrick had to explain to me.
And it took him--
it took him some minutes.
And I'm very proud that he was able to get it.
I'm very-- I'm very proud that he
was able to explain it to me.
I'm very proud that I was able to understand it.
Um, y'all are nerds.
[LAUGHS]
MAN: [LAUGHS]
I mean, I am, too.
Like, don't get me wrong.
MAN: I know, right?
I--yeah.
Like, we--
MAN: But--but nerds get to call each other nerds.
Yeah, yeah.
MAN: There are-- there are hierarchies.
Yeah.
I-- I also want to point out that I spared everybody really
bad jazz jokes.
Like, deep music theory nonsense that Patrick was like, no one
will get that.
And I was like, but no one's gonna
get the Magic the Gathering joke, either.
But he-- he was right.
Everybody did get it.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Maybe we should've make some bad jazz jokes.
More-- yeah, OK.
I was talking to him about trying to find cards that had
the word augmented in it so we can make an augmented chords
jo-- it's too--yeah.
Let's-- you see where I was probably headed.
It's good that we didn't go there.
And last but not least, uh, Srpad
points out the different types of, uh, player types,
uh, for Magic the Gathering.
These are sort of like, um, player archetypes
or personality types.
What they look for in Magic the Gathering.
Um, they go by the names Timmy, Tammy, Johnny, Jenny,
and Spike.
Uh, there's also a couple others-- um, Mel and Vorthos.
Um, and trying to sort of think through whether or not
those map particularly well onto how people play music,
and I think that there--
I think that this argument holds water,
um, and is not-- not a way that I thought
about thinking-- thinking through,
um, devotees to certain genres in the past.
So yeah, this was, uh, eye-opening, uh,
in ad in a really interesting way.
So yeah, thanks for this comment.
This was great.