I used to get up in the morning,
start and argument with my wife,
it weren't great at the time,
and she'd go, "Why don't you get out and go to the flat?"
And I'd have it all planned.
I'd have money, I'd take the laptop round,
I'd take all my drink round or go to the off licence
and I'd sit there for three days on one,
just gamble, gamble 'til everything's gone, everything,
and then I'd go back and go, "I'm really sorry,
Hello mate.
How're you doing? You all right?
Yeah, good, you?
Yeah, not too bad, thanks buddy.
Good.
Hiya mate, I'm Paul Merson.
Used to be a professional footballer,
played for Arsenal, Villa, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough
and played for England.
Now I work on Sky.
And I'm Jack, also Pieface, and I make YouTube videos
and I stream on the website Twitch
mainly involved in FIFA and football.
[Producer Connor] How did your experience of gambling start?
Experience of gambling started really
with my first wage pack,
I'd just signed for Arsenal.
I was on a youth training scheme, £100 a month,
and I got my wages out at Finsbury Park.
I'd never been in a betting shop, I was 16 years of age,
I'd never had a bet in my life.
I walked in there
and it was like walking onto a spaceship,
just completely and utterly took me out the way I felt.
The buzz, the atmosphere,
I was a shy kid at the time, very insecure.
And it just took me out.
I just couldn't believe it, it blew my mind.
I lost every penny.
And after that, that was it.
Believe it or not usually people go,
"Oh, I lost everything," that was it.
Mainly people who get into addictions,
it's, like, I won a lorry load of money
and then that's where it started.
Mine was the other way around.
It just completely and utterly
took me out the way I felt.
That's crazy, 'cause when I was younger
it was almost the same thing.
As a kid, I used to just mess around
on the smaller fruit machines, not the adult ones,
the ones that you can play at a young age.
And then being in school someone I think
it was the same in a bookies.
They come into school with a load of notes -
this was when I was 18 - an absolute load of notes.
Oh, "How'd you get that?"
"Oh, just played roulette in the bookies."
"Oh, okay, well, I'll go in there with you next time."
As you said, the first time was a disaster.
I lost 20, 30 quid, whatever it was,
which when you're 18 is a lot of money.
But that first time you then turn 20, 30 quid
into £300, you think,
'Wow, this is unbelievable,' until it spirals.
And yeah, that's how I got into it
and then yeah, the downward spiral, shall we say.
I think the feeling I had
when I was gambling was literally about feeling,
getting the way out of I felt,
'cause it didn't matter how much I won.
Whatever I won the next bet was going on.
And if I lost, the next bet was going on.
I bet, every single time I ever bet,
I bet 'til I got to zero, to literally to zero.
And it was getting out the way I felt.
The money was, it was irrelevant.
And I don't mean that in a horrible way,
but it was the addiction, the addiction takes over
and it completely and utterly...
All you do is 100% every minute of the day,
think of gambling,
whether it be what you're gonna bet on next,
how am I gonna get money?
Everything takes you over.
Yeah, and I resonate with that so much though,
'cause it's exactly the same,
whether it was, like, as you say, it's 6 to 4 done,
isn't it? Next thing, done.
And it's all about, it's not just about the money -
obviously it is about the money,
'cause you are gambling to win -
but it's just, like, the rush is what's crazy.
It's not about how much you win,
'cause it's just your next bet, as you said.
And it's, whether it's on that day
it doesn't even matter on that day.
If you won a grand, if I won a grand
I'd be absolutely buzzing, but I couldn't sleep,
'cause I know the next day it was going again
and it would be, 'Oh it's all right,
I'll just do 50 of it,'
and an hour later it's all gone.
And then goes another 500 that I had stashed away
and then I've got nothing left for two weeks.
And that's exactly where it takes you
is where I could be winning bundles of money,
lose a bet and I would chase that bet back
like you couldn't catch your breath.
My rationale couldn't tell me
that, 'You're still winning, Paul, that was just a loser.'
And that's where it takes- the addiction
completely and utterly takes you over.
It's just, the rationale, it just goes out the window.
I just find it, even now when I sit here talking about it -
and I haven't had a bet for over two years -
is I could still feel that pain
that chase, chase, chase, chase, chase.
That's the difference between a compulsive gambler
and normal people that bet. I mean, I used to go in the pub
and everybody would be on their phones
and they'd have their bet and win and they'd go, "Oh great."
And I'd be, like, "What now?"
You're gonna smash it on something else,
do you know what I mean?
I'm betting on 'Deal or no Deal' with a mate of mine.
We're betting on boxes,
who's got the most money in each box.
I mean, couldn't do anything without having a bet.
I couldn't watch anything, no sport, no nothing.
It give me no interest at all.
It's just mind-blowing what it does, the brain,
what the addiction does to the brain.
So in terms of gambling on stuff
I mean, for me it was mainly, like, machines and stuff
was probably my sort of the kryptonite,
the one thing that got me most.
I mean, the roulette machines in the bookies,
just so dangerous.
£50, £100 spins, you could do it like it was nothing.
And I think it was the fact that
it was so fast and quick,
you could spin it so quickly.
I mean, it was the belief
that you could turn 50 quid into £500 in five minutes.
You know, that's two weeks' work done.
I've had nights where I legitimately have gone through
probably 50 websites where they have
free sign-up bonuses,
just 'cause I've got no money just to literally give me
some sort of hit. Like, 10 free spins turning £3
into... trying to turn it into a tenner.
Just, not even about the stake,
just the fact to see it spinning
and in my head to think, 'I'm gambling.'
So it's just mental.
That was for me, anyway.
Yeah, mine started off with the horses and the dogs.
And then it was just sport. I love sport.
I love that longevity, you know.
I'd put six figures on a sport,
I'd find it hard to put it on a roulette table
and just go... Too quick for me.
I need that longevity.
And that's what it was like,
whether it be basketball, rugby or football, cricket
where you're getting so high up here
and then all of a sudden you lose a wicket
and you fall down here.
And I got addicted to the feelings
if I'm being honest, as well;
the hurt and the happiness,
and the addiction of keep on chasing -
where am I gonna get money from?
And that become an addiction in itself.
Who can I lend money off?
Who can I ring up today?
The one thing I found with gambling,
you become a professional liar.
You become so good at lying, it's dangerous.
If you go out drinking, you come in and you say to the wife,
she goes, "Where are you?"
You make something up.
In a couple of weeks she will catch you,
'cause she'll say it and you'll forget what you even said
'cause you were drunk.
With gambling, you become such an unbelievable liar.
[Connor] When did you realise
you were struggling with your gambling?
[Connor] When did you realise
Oh wow. A long time ago.
And I still lost thousands and thousands and thousands
and kept on going back thinking the result will be different
and I'll win next time.
Yeah, I mean, it's quite sad really
that when you sit there and you think about
how long ago you knew you had a problem.
I mean, I went into treatment
one of the top treatment centres in the whole of America
if not in the whole of the world
for gambling addiction and still come out
and four years later thought,
'No, I can do it this time. I can do it. I can be that...'
So a long time ago. And when you have thoughts
of killing yourself and you wanna kill yourself to end it,
'cause you can't go anymore,
that tells you you're not well, how bad you are.
And still, my addiction will still tell me,
'It's all right, you can do it properly, do it properly.'
In 1991 - and we're talking about,
I finished two years ago at 53 -
so in '91, I've just won the league with Arsenal
for the second time in three years,
I've got home, I'd just bought a four-bedroom house
over in Wheathampstead
and I was sitting there on a sofa with concrete,
I didn't have carpet.
I chose to gamble my money away instead of buying carpet.
And that was like that for months.
And I was getting good money
where I could have easily gone, I'm gonna buy a carpet,
and I chose for the addiction over the carpet.
When I was probably early twenties
I moved into a shared house and on that same day
I paid my rent to move in,
the spare money that I had to buy everything
for furnishing to put in there I lost all that
on the same day.
Luckily, a mate of mine helped me out and bailed me out.
If I didn't have that, I would've been screwed.
So I resonate with that so much.
I know it's on a like slightly different scale,
but it's still exactly the same outcome.
I knew when I was young,
I knew I was even before I was 18,
I knew I had some sort of issue,
'cause whether it was just, like, in the social club
playing the quiz machine,
I knew it wasn't just about the quiz
it was the whole rush that there was money on the line
and there was some sort of gambling edge.
I think when it comes to everyday life
gambling addiction can properly mess with your head.
Whether it was when I started streaming with it
or when I was back working at Maccie's,
it just literally takes over,
because there's nothing else I could think of.
So even on a good day or a bad day,
it was just gamble, gamble, gamble.
Yeah, I could relate to that 100%.
I mean, it completely and utterly took my life over 24/7.
I mean, people go, "How much did you lose?"
The money's gone. The money's irrelevant.
I lost time. You lose time with the kids.
Do you know what I mean?
Not interested in anything else but yourself.
I look back now and I'd be winning
and everything's rosy and I've won and bathing the kids
the kids are splashing me
and it's a laugh and a joke and I'm saturated.
And it's funny.
Two or three days later I've just lost all my money,
and the kids are splashing me and I go ballistic,
"What are you splashing me for? I've got my clothes on."
And you look at the kids
and they just they're, like, 'Well wait, two days ago
you was happy as Larry and we were splashing you.'
And they don't see it,
'cause they don't see anything,
'cause they don't know it's gambling 'cause it's hidden.
It just completely takes you over.
It takes you out of yourself,
and that's the sad thing.
And it's such a hidden, hidden thing where people think
you are a bad person, but you're not a bad person,
you are an ill person who needs to seriously get well.
And I think through our lives we always treat ourselves
as bad people who need to keep on getting good
and failing miserably by getting money again
and losing it all again and letting people down.
If I wanna go down the pub today
I have to put something in me.
If I wanna get high, I have to put something in me.
This is in me already.
It's in your head.
Thank God today I have a choice today.
I know I'm an ill person.
I'm not a bad person, I'm just an ill person.
Yeah, I think honestly,
when it comes to the relationships
with friends and family,
gambling just it absolutely destroys it.
And I feel for them,
because they didn't need me to be aggy or on edge
because of things I'd done.
But if it wasn't for them,
then I don't think I'd be in the situation I'm in now.
So I think for anybody out there that has,
that knows they're struggling, all right,
definitely talk to your friends and family,
'cause they'll definitely be there to help you with it.
Yeah, I mean, this is the problem with compulsive gambling,
it destroys everything around you.
I mean, I have a choice.
For the first time since I was 16 years of age
before I walked in that betting shop
where I had a choice that day to not walk in
and I walked in, I have a choice today, it's my choice.
I know today, if I go back to gamble
I know what's gonna happen.
So it is my choice.
But I just find what you do
to other people is so destructive, so destructive.
And I'm not a bad person, honestly not a bad person.
If people met me, they'd go, "Oh, what a good bloke."
But when I was gambling I didn't really care for anybody,
and that's sad, it's sad.
Yeah, that's the thing,
you're in that bubble aren't you? I look at it the same way.
I feel, like, 'You know what?
I'm a nice person.' Always try and be nice to people,
I always care about everyone else,
but I do get quite selfish
in that sort of, in that... I would call it
you just go into that sort of mode where that's it,
you're just locked in and nothing else literally matters.
It's a horrible addiction,
a horrible addiction that gets you on your own.
It wants you on your own.
I haven't really got any friends, if I'm being honest.
My addiction withdrew me away from everybody, everybody.
It just, that's all it ever done,
that I just wanted to be on my own and gamble.
I'd have days where we have a rented house,
but we lived around the corner in an apartment we had,
and we had to move
'cause the little one was getting bigger,
it was one bedroom.
So we moved to this house, but we still had the apartment.
I used to get, this is how my brain used to work,
I used to get up in the morning,
start and argument with my wife,
it weren't great at the time,
and she'd go, "Why don't you get out and go to the flat?"
And I'd have it all planned.
I'd have money, I'd take the laptop round,
I'd take all my drink round or go to the off licence
and I'd sit there for three days on one,
just gamble, gamble 'til everything's gone, everything,
and then I'd go back and go, "I'm really sorry,
I'm really sorry."
That's how manipulating this addiction is,
that I had that planned in my head
that she's gonna go, "Just go to the flat."
My life now is beyond belief
compared to what it was like.
And before, I was earning millions, millions,
I earn nothing like that anymore
and my life's a hundred times better.
Do you know what I mean? It's a hundred times better
and there is help out there for people.
[Connor] What are the signs do you think
of problem gambling or gambling harms?
Is there things that, if you were speaking
to someone that thinks they might have a problem,
of things that you would look out for?
I always say that to people,
it's that degen attitude
that I would go to a shop next to bookie's,
I wouldn't wanna buy a bottle of Diet Coke
'cause it's £1.50,
but then I'll go and put £100 on a race or something,
or I'll spin £100 in 30 seconds,
but you don't wanna pay £1.50.
Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
I think as well, one of the signs is if you're sort of
doing it alone and not telling people,
if you're not having fun with friends doing it
if you're just sat there on your own
and you can't kind of like tell people what you're doing
'cause you know it's bad, I think then
that's certainly another sign.
I think I would say to people,
and I always try and say this to people,
if you think you're struggling,
tell your friends and family as a start
would be for me, the first thing,
'cause they're the ones that can help you.
But honestly, just speak to people,
I think openly admitting to yourself and people
you've got an issue, that's the key step.
'Cause once you're honest with yourself,
I think it helps so much to say, "I know I've got it.
I just need to try and help deal with it."
For me, I think that's the key is that level
of honesty with yourself I think before you speak to others.
Yeah, I would say anybody who's got a problem,
I mean, as you just said there Jack,
if you're doing it on your own and you're not telling people
you know you've got a problem,
I would get to a GA meeting, if I'm being honest,
for compulsive gamblers,
be around people that understand, be around...
'Cause the one thing that this addiction will tell you?
That you're alone, it's just you, no one else, just you.
And there's loads and loads of people out there
in recovery who are getting well every day.
[Connor] What kind of place are you in right now
with your gambling struggles?
Where I am now is a good place.
I would say a good place.
I have to save to go on holiday.
I have to save if I wanna buy something.
All my life, the job I had, I earned bundles of money
and I could do whatever I wanted.
And today I don't and I'm more happy.
I tried to kill myself three times when I was a millionaire
and my life today is priceless.
I'm happy, I can go and watch my boy play football
and come home and my wife will say to me,
"How did he play?"
And I could tell her everything about the game.
I was there, I was there in presence,
not just there in motion,
and my head's here and I'm looking on my phone
and I'm not watching.
I can go to a little gym with my little girl
or mother and toddler with my other little girl,
I can do them things today.
They are priceless to me.
The money is irrelevant.
Yeah, the thing is I resonate so much of
what you're saying.
Listening to it hits every nail,
'cause as I say, I'm quite open and honest about it now
from where I was in a horrific point to now,
because I try and focus on my sort of community and that,
to me that's my sort of main focus now.
I want to make sure that I put all of my efforts and time
into that as opposed to other things.
But I just know that I have to
for the next period of however long life is, deal with it.
But I know that I've got friends and family there.
I know that I've got people there
and I know now that if I was gonna start to slide,
I know I can say, "Right, I've got all the help and advice
here I need, this is it," and I know I can snap out of it.
I mean, the main thing is
and I think the one thing we haven't mentioned today
and the most important thing is it's a day at a time.
This is one day at a time.
I get up in the morning, I say, "I don't take drugs today.
I don't gamble, I don't drink today.
I can do it, I can do it."
If someone said to me, "You can never have another drug
another drink, or another bet for the rest of your life,"
that is even saying it now, that is overwhelming,
I couldn't do it.
But I know today if I keep it in the day
and that's all we have, it's all-
everybody, don't matter if you're the richest person
in the world or poorest person in the world,
whoever lives their life in the moment
is the richest person in the world.
I mean, and that's the thing I think everybody's gotta get,
is it's for today.
Just for today we don't do it, just for today.
Cheers for that.
Jack, good luck, mate.
I wish you all the best for the future
And yourself, Paul, thank you.
Good luck, mate, and good luck to Plymouth.
And I'd say, I would say good luck to Arsenal,
but I can't do that, unfortunately.
Randall, this is a load of s**t. There you go.
there's your interview, LADbible.
Where's your lowest point? F**k. Now!
Ha, ha, yeah.
Where's the table as well?
See you in a bit. Ha, ha, ha.
Right, what's next?