Judy: After a five-decade long
career in public health,
Dr. Anthony Fauci is stepping
aside from his job.
He has been one of the leading
public health voices in the
country since he took on the
role of director of the national
institutes of allergy and
infectious diseases in 1984, and
he's advised seven presidents.
His exit comes as the country is
dealing with the worst flu
season in a decade and another
covid winter surge.
The U.S. Has come a long way
with covid over the past three
years, but the problem is not
over, and hospitalizations are
rising again in some areas.
For a look at all of this, Dr.
Fauci joins me now.
Welcome back to the newshour.
Dr. Fauci: Thank you.
Good to be with you.
Judy: Anthony Fauci, so you are
coming up on the end of your
public career.
But as we just said, covid is
still here.
You were at the white house
today with first lady Jill
Biden, encouraging people again
to get their vaccine, their
covid vaccine.
As we just said,
hospitalizations up just in the
last two weeks.
This is not over, is it?
Dr. Fauci: No, by no means.
It's not over at all.
And that's one of the things we
want to make sure that the
American public appreciates,
because there are still things
that are at our disposal that we
can do to mitigate what you just
said.
You know, we're entering into
the colder season.
We're getting into the holiday
season.
We have flu out there, and now
we have covid that is still
lingering there.
In fact, upticking in certain
regions of the country, which is
expected as you enter into the
winter months.
Judy: So what does it mean to
you to be urging Americans yet
again?
I don't know how many times
you've been out there saying,
get the vaccine, get the
booster.
Dr. Fauci: Well, it is
frustrating, Judy, because we
are appreciative of the fact
that all of us are fatigued with
three years of covid and the
public would like to put it
behind them.
And then when you say we still
have to update ourselves with
the best possible booster, a
vaccine that's available.
The irony of it is we have a
very good booster available, and
the relative percentage of
people who are making use of
that is small.
It's less than 20% of the total
population that are eligible.
We've got to do better than
that.
And that's the reason why just
today, as you said, the first
lady and I and Dr. Jha were out
there encouraging people to vote
right now.
Not wait a week, three weeks, a
month, if you're eligible.
Now get boosted.
Judy: And there are still people
out there -- I mean, you
mentioned there's fatigue, but
there's still skepticism out
there.
Is there any question that
there's a correlation between
getting the vaccine and either
not having covid or having a
milder case of it?
Dr. Fauci: The data are so
strong, they knock you over.
All you have to do is look at
the data of the hospitalizations
and deaths among unvaccinated
individuals.
And the curve is like that.
You compare that curve with the
vaccinated and boosted people,
and the curve is like that.
You don't need a statistician to
explain to you the difference
between unvaccinated and
vaccinated and booster.
The data are crystal clear.
Judy: I'm asking in part because
I still have people saying to
me, well, you say people are
dying with covid, but is it
because they have -- because
it's with covid or because of
covid?
Dr. Fauci: It's because of
covid.
There is a difference between
someone who will get in an
automobile accident and have
covid.
That person didn't die from
covid.
That person died from the
automobile accident.
When we're talking about the
numbers now, which are still
lingering around 300 deaths per
day, those are deaths from
covid.
Judy: The flu.
You mentioned it, and we
mentioned it in the
introduction.
What's going on with that?
I mean, there's a history almost
-- maybe it's not historic, but
a surprisingly low percentage of
Americans this season are going
out and getting the flu shot.
How do you understand that?
Dr. Fauci: I think that's a
carryover of the public being
exhausted from outbreaks, from
viruses, and from getting
vaccinated.
I think it's a spillover in
people who feel they want to put
covid behind them, and tn they
say, oh my goodness, another
outbreak, flu.
And they have to realize, we're
having a particularly bad flu
season again.
Again, if you look at the curve,
it's almost vertical in cases
going up with flu.
And if you compare the flu
numbers at this time of the
season compared to the last
decade, it's the worst that
we've seen in about 10 years.
Judy: Let's talk about your
career.
You, as we said, five decades
and more.
Many highlights and many tough
slogs you've been through.
You are credited, Dr. Fauci, as
being the person who drew
attention, sufficient attention,
to the AIDS epidemic back in the
in the 1980's, at a time when
many were arguing it was a niche
problem, a niche illness.
It didn't deserve the research,
the attention, the funding.
But you, and you've said
yourself, you didn't take it so
seriously to begin with.
Well, it isn't that I didn't
take it seriously.
It's that I didn't fully
appreciate that the scientific,
clinical trial, and regulatory
structure was ill suited to this
type of disease.
And the activists, particularly
the gay activists, were trying
to get our attention to realize
that we needed to get them
involved in the planning, to
understand what it is like to be
afflicted or be at risk for
this.
Thank goodness pretty quickly I
listened and paid attention to
them and learned a lot from the
activist community.
And then, we started to work
together to make the conditions
better.
Judy: And what would you say you
learned?
Because at the time, as you say,
the activist community was very
angry with you.
You've written about this,
spoken about it.
Dr. Fauci: Yeah.
You learn to listen to the
people who are being involved
with what you're trying to deal
with.
If it's an outbreak, it's a
disease, it's the people who are
suffering or at risk for it.
You have to include them in the
discussion.
It can't be top down from the
regulators, the scientists, the
physicians, and the people who
are involved.
You've got to involve them right
from the very beginning.
And thankfully, that's what we
ultimately did, and it made the
situation much better.
Judy: Are there other lessons
that that jump out at you or
that you feel you have ingrained
over the years about being in
public health?
Yeah, well, the thing that's
been so distressing and painful
for me over the last three years
is witnessing what happens when
you have a common enemy, like a
virus that is causing covid, the
sars-cov-2 that has already
killed over a million Americans.
And you have such divisiveness
in society.
That sounds obvious.
Public health principles are not
followed because they're being
influenced by ideological
considerations.
There's absolutely no excuse for
that.
We have a common enemy.
It's sort of like you're in a
World War.
You shouldn't be fighting with
each other when you're fighting
the enemy.
Just the way we came together on
911, we've got to do that when
we're dealing with a formidable
challenge like covid-19.
Judy: On covid, as you know,
there's been praise for what
you've done.
There's also been criticism.
We've heard people say in
particular that you and others
who were in charge of getting
the word out to the American
people sent the message that we
need to keep things closed for
too long, and that there were
states like Florida that opened
up earlier than the federal
government was recommending and
they did relatively okay.
How do you look back on the
advice about being closed and
for how long?
Dr. Fauci: Well, you always have
to evaluate to try and open as
quickly as you can, as safely as
you can.
No one likes to shut down
anything, be it general society,
the economy, or schools.
We all felt strongly that it was
a difficult decision, and you
want to open up as quickly as
you can, as long as you use the
shutdown period for a purpose
and endgame, namely at the time
that the recommendation was made
to essentially close down a bit.
You might recall the hospitals
were being overrun in New York.
Remember elmhurst hospital with
the cooler trucks out there
putting the bodies in.
We had to do something.
That doesn't mean you do it
indefinitely.
You use that time to get
hospital beds in better shape,
to get more ppe, to get the
proper number of ventilators.
When you're in a situation where
you have vaccine available, the
only time you would want to
restrict society is to give you
time to get your population
vaccinated, which in fact is the
reason why we believe the
Chinese have made somewhat of a
mistake in shutting down rigidly
but not at the same time
vaccinating their entire
population, including the
elderly.
Judy: Do you think here in the
United States, though, that the
guidance to stay closed down
went on too long, that it should
have been open sooner?
Dr. Fauci: Judy, it's tough to
say.
No doubt that kind of
restriction has saved a lot of
lives.
There's no argument about that
.
To say maybe a little bit longer
or a little bit shorter.
I think that's arguable.
But the idea about shutting down
for at least a temporary period
of time clearly has saved many,
many lives.
Judy: As I mentioned, there's
been praise and there's been
criticism.
But another criticism is that
you and other public health
officials were not transparent
enough at points along the way
about what you knew and what you
didn't know about covid.
Dr. Fauci: That's nonsense.
[Laughter]
That is total nonsense that we
weren't transparent about it.
What the public needed to know
and perhaps we could have done a
better job, is that we were
dealing with a dynamic, evolving
situation.
The information we had in
January of 2020 evolved because
as we were first, we first
thought it was poorly
transmitted from person to
person.
Then we found out from China
gradually it was well
transmitted, then it was aerosol
transmitted, then it was
transmitted predominantly 50% to
60% from someone who has no
symptoms at all.
So, when we were making
recommendations in January,
early February, mid-february and
March, the situation was
changing.
Judy: You and I were just
talking as we wrap up this
interview about the reaction
you've gotten from many in the
American public about your work
overall, especially during this
pandemic.
Is there a message there for
other -- and a lot of it has
been very ugly, as you write.
This there in message there for
other government workers, other
public servant?
Dr. Fauci: It has been a tough
road to hoe over the last three
years because public health
officials, physicians, nurses,
and scientists, and public
health officials have really had
a lot of pushback and an
anti-science, somewhat hostile
approach to them.
My word and advice to them is
stick with what we're doing.
It's a noble profession.
You get a great deal of
satisfaction and gratification
about of helping others.
And even though we're in a
somewhat bizarre situation where
there's attacks on public health
officials, that will pass.
We'll get back to a world, I
hope, where people appreciate
when a group like public health
officials have devoted their
lives to the safety and the
health of the American public,
and they should be looked upon
with some degree of appreciation
for that.
Judy: Dr. Anthony Fauci,
stepping down after 54 years in
service of the federal
government.
Thank you very much.
Dr. Fauci: Thank you for having
me, Judy.
Good to be with you.