MATHEWS IN WASHINGTON ON THE WEEK OF THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF
HARDBALL ON MSNBC.
FIRST HE SAID HE DIDN’T KNOW IT
WAS A QUIT PRO QUO FOR MILITARY
AID.
AID. NOW HE ADMITS THAT HE DID.
THAT’S HOW A CRUCIAL WITNESS IN
THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY HAS JUST
BLOWN PRESIDENT TRUMP’S COVER.
THE U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE
EUROPEAN UNION, GORDON SONDLAND
NOW ADMITS HE PERSONALLY SPELLED
OUT THE TERMS OF THE A QUID PRO
QUO TO UKRAINE, A FACT HE
OMITTED FROM HIS TESTIMONY LAST
MONTH.
MONTH. IN A STUNNING MOVE, SONLANDS
AMENDED HIS TESTIMONY TO HOUSE
IMPEACHMENT INVESTIGATORS SAYING
THAT OTHER WITNESSES HAVE NOW
REFRESHED HIS RECOLLECTION ABOUT
CERTAIN CONVERSATIONS.
CERTAIN CONVERSATIONS. HE NOW CONFIRMS THAT HE MADE
CLEAR TO A TOP UKRAINIAN
OFFICIAL THAT MILITARY SUPPORT
WAS CONTINGENT ON UKRAINE’S
PLANS TO DELIVER ON TRUMP’S
DEMANDS.
DEMANDS. ACCORDING TO STOPPEDLAND’S
UPDATED TESTIMONY, HE NOW
RECALLS TELLING A U.S. AIDE, I
SAID THAT THE RESUMPTION OF THE
U.S. AID WOULD LIKELY NOT OCCUR
UNTIL YOU CRANE PROVIDED THE
PUBLIC ANTI-CORRUPTION
PUBLIC ANTI-CORRUPTION STATEMENT.
STATEMENT. WITH THIS RELEVATION, SONDLAND
HAS BECOME THE FOURTH WITNESS TO
AFIRM A QUID PRO QUO.
MILITARY AID IN EXCHANGE FOR
POLITICAL DIRT.
POLITICAL DIRT. AND THIS COMES WITH THE RELEASE
OF SONLAND’S TESTIMONY LAST
MONTH, WHICH PAINTS A DAMMING
PICK HOW THE PRESIDENT EXTORTED
UKRAINE, THROUGH HIS PERSONAL
LAWYER.
LAWYER. SONDLAND SAYS THAT TRUMP
REPEATEDLY ORDERED HIM TO QUOTE
TALK TO RUDY GUILIANI LAST
MONTH, SAYING UKRAINE IS A
PROBLEM.
PROBLEM. HE PORTRAYED THEIR SQUEEZE OF
UKRAINE AS AN ESCALATING SET OF
DEMANDS, WHICH BECAME CONDITIONS
FOR AMERICAN SUPPORT.
AND SONDLAND SAID THAT THOSE
DEMAND QUOTE KEPT GETTING MORE
INSIDIOUS AS THE TIME LINE WENT
ON AND WHILE SONDLAND SAID HE
COULD NOT PINPOINT WHEN HE
FINALLY REALIZED TRUMP AND
GUILIANI WERE SEEKING DURT ON
THE BIDEN, THE CONDITIONS ON
UKRAINE CAME TO INCLUDE AN
INVESTIGATION OF BOTH THE 2016
ELECTION AND BURISMA, THE
COMPANY LINKED TO HUNTER BIDEN.
THE DAMMING STATEMENT SONDLAND
SAID, THOSE CONDITIONS WOULD
HAVE TO BE COMPLIED WITH PRIOR
TO GETTING A MEETING BETWEEN
TRUMP AND SLELEN SKI.
AND HE TESTIFIED THAT AFTER
REALIZING WHAT WAS AFOOT, HE
BELIEVED THE DEMANDS ON UKRAINE
WERE IMPROPER, IF NOT ILLEGAL.
I AM JOINED NOW BY NBC NEWS
NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER AND
WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR
PBS NEWS HOUR AND GLEN KIRSHNER
FEDERAL FORMER PROSECUTOR.
JOSH, TELL US THE STORY OF
GORDON SONDLAND AND HOW HE
SWITCHED FROM A GUY WHO TEMD E
SEEMED TO BE HELPING OUT TRUMP
TO A GUY GOING 180 FROM AND
SAYING THERE WAS A QUID PRO QUO,
NO MILITARY AIDE WITHOUT DIRT ON
BIDEN.
BIDEN. >> SONDLAND SAID PREVIOUSLY AND
REPUBLICANS SEIZED IN THE TEXT
MESSAGES HE HAD SAID HE HAD
SPOKEN TO TRUMP AND CLEAR THERE
HAD BEEN QUID PRO QUO, NO QUID
PRO QUO.
PRO QUO. NOW SONDLAND IS SAYING LOOK ALL
I WAS DOING IS REPRESENTING WHAT
THE PRESIDENT TOLD ME.
>> THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN THE
CASE.
CASE. IN FACT, HE DIDN’TLY THE IT WAS
THE CASE.
THE CASE. WE KNOW RIGHT AROUND THAT SAME
TIME HE WAS TELLING THE TOP AIDE
TO ZELENSKY YOU NEED TO DO X IF
YOU NEED TO GET Y.
A SOURCE SAID LOOK IF I TELL YOU
I’M PRETTY SURE THE MAFIA IS
GOING TO BRAKE YOUR WINDOWS IF
YOU DON’T PAY UP, THAT’S NEITHER
EXTORTING YOU NOR IS IT EXCUSING
THE MAFIA.
THE MAFIA. IT’S PASSING ALONG MY BEST SENSE
OF THE SITUATION AS IT HAS TO
BE.
BE. SO SONDLAND IS TRYING TO SPLIT
THE DIFFERENCE SAYING I CONVEYED
WHAT THE PRESIDENT TOLD ME IT
ALSO WAS NOT THE CASE AND I TOLD
THE UKRAINIANS WHAT I KNEW WAS
THE SITUATION.
THE SITUATION. >> NOW HE WAS TELLING THE
UKRAINIANS YOU BETTER DO THIS,
YOU WON’T GET THAT, HE WAS
EXECUTED THE REQUEST I’D PRO
QUO.
QUO. >> I THINK WE CAN TAKE THE TERM
QUID PRO QUO AND CALL IT WHAT IT
IS, IT’S BRIBERY.
BRIBERY, CHRIS, IS NOTHING MORE
THAN PROVIDING MONEY OR SOME
KIND OF ENDUESMENT TO A
GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TO TAKE AN
ACT OR DECLINE TO TAKE AN ACT.
THAT’S WHAT TRUMP DID.
HE WAS TRYING TO INDUCE
PRESIDENT ZELENSKY TO STAND UP
IN FRONT OF CAMERAS SOMERSET
WHERE, SOMEHOW, AND SAYING WE’RE
INVESTIGATING THE BIDENS.
THAT’S BRIBERY.
THAT’S BRIBERY. LET’S START CALLING IT WHAT IT
IS, IT’S ONE OF THE THREE OR
FOUR IN THE CONSTITUTION,
TREASON, BRIBERY, OTHER HIGH
CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.
WHAT ARE THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS
GOING TO SAY NOW?
>> WE NOW HAVE FOUR WITNESSES,
INCLUDING ONE WE THOUGHT WAS A
TRUMP YIP, THIS TRUMPY NOW SAID
QUID PRO QUO.
>> WHAT REPUBLICANS WILL SAY NOW
IS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO BE
NIMBLE THE EASY WAY TO PLAY IT,
THE NICE WAY TO PUT IT, THEY ARE
GOING TO CONTINUE TO ADJUST
THEIR MESSAGE.
THEIR MESSAGE. THE MESSAGE SEEMS TO BE MOVING
TOWARDS THIS WAS PROBLEMATIC FOR
PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT IT WASN’T
IMPEACHABLE.
IMPEACHABLE. ALL MY CONVERSATIONS WITH
REPUBLICANS, NONE OF THEM ARE
SAYING THESE PEOPLE AREN’T
CREDIBLE.
CREDIBLE. NO ONE IS SAYING THEY ARE MAKING
THIS UP HOR THE TRANSCRIPTS ARE
FAKE AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, THIS
WAS A REMARKABLE CHANGE BY
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND HERE.
YOU HAVE HIM THE DAY BEFORE HIS
TRAN CRYPT IS COMING OUT SAYING
ACTUALLY I WANT TO ADD A LITTLE
BIT HERE, NOW MY MEMORY IS PRE
FRESH
FRESH REFRESHED, HIS ATTORNEY WAS
PRESSING HIM WHAT DO YOU MAKE
PEOPLE ARE SAYING HE IS
CRITIQUING HIMSELF, THIS IS SELF
SERVING.
SERVING. HE DIDN’T WANT TO ENGAGE ON THAT
HE BASICALLY DID SAY THIS IS
SOMEONE THAT WANTS TO DO WHAT’S
RIGHT AND TALK TO THE CONGRESS
AN PRESENT HIS SIDE OF THE
STORY.
STORY. >> DOES ANYBODY BELIEVE
POLITICIANS OR ANYONE LIKE THIS?
DOES ANYONE BELIEVE HE HAD HIS
MEMORY REFRESHED?
MEMORY REFRESHED? >> IT’S FRESHED.
>> YOU DON’T HAVE TO.
>> HE’S COVERING HIS BUTT.
>> AFTER REVIEWING THESE OTHER
PEOPLE’S OPENING STATEMENT,
SUDDENLY HE CAN RECOLLECT,
RECALL THIS CONVERSATION.
I THINK SONDLAND’S TEAM KNOWS
THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM AS A
GREAT WITNESS.
GREAT WITNESS. >> HIS LAWYER SOUNDS LIKE A
RINKY DINK, JUST TELL THEM YOU
DON’T REMEMBER.
DON’T REMEMBER. >> HOUSE DEMOCRATS EVEN SIDE TO
PUT HIM FORWARD IN THOSE OPENING
HEARINGS OR THEY DECIDE SOME OF
THESE OTHER DECORATED CAREER
SERVANTS MIGHT BE BETTER?
>> PRESIDENT TRUMP, I GOT TO
TALK ABOUT THE PRIME DEFENDANT
HERE, THE GUY WHO MAY WELL BE
IMPEACHED IN THE NEXT MONTH,
WHAT’S HE THINKING?
CAN ANYBODY DEFEND ME?
NOBODY WANTS TO DEFEND ME,
KNOWING, NOT EVEN THIS TRUMP
RIGHT I GAVE HIM THE JOB OF WHAT
AMBASSADOR TO THE EUROPEAN
UNION, HE STILL WON’T STAND UP
FOR ME?
FOR ME? >> FIRST OF ALL, I WAS AT THE
WHITE HOUSE ALL DAY.
IT WAS A QUIET WHITE HOUSE.
THIS WAS A PRESIDENT WHO DIDN’T
HAVE ANY PUBLIC EVENT TODAY.
>> THAT TELLS YOU IN SOME WAYS
THE PRESIDENT ISN’T OUT
DEFENDING HIMSELF AS THE
TRANSCRIPTS COME OUT.
THE DEFENDANT IS ESSENTIALLY
WANTING REPUBLICANS TO DISPLAY
THIS FIERCE LOYALTY.
MITCH McCONNELL SAYS IF
PRESIDENT TRUMP GETS IMPEACHED
HE WILL BE ACQUITTED.
SO YOU HAVE REPUBLICANS SAYING
WE ARE SEEING ALL OF THIS WE
STILL THINK WE KNOW IT WILL END
AND IT WILL END UP WITH
PRESIDENT TRUMP STILL NOT --
>> A ROPE-A-DOPE SENATE TRIAL,
THAT’S ALL TRUE, THAT’S ALL
TRUE.
TRUE. THEN THEY GIVE THE SEEN FELD
DEFENSE NOT THAT THERE IS
ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT.
>> I LOVE YOUR WORD NIMBLE.
I DON’T THINK YOU NIMBLE WOUR
AYE OUT OF BRIBERY.
THE QUESTION IS ARE THEY GOING
TO FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW OR ARE
THEY NOT IN IF THEY’RE NOT AT
WHAT COST TO OUR REPUBLIC?
THE ONE THING I LIKE ABOUT
SONDLAND GIVING THE PRESIDENT
UP.
UP. HE’S NOT A NEVER TRUMPER.
HE WAS AN ALWAYS TRUMPER UNTIL
PERJURY SEEMED TO BE A LITTLE
MORE IMPORTANT THEN HE HAD TO
TELL THE TRUTH.
YOU KNOW, WILL IT MATTER?
WILL THE RULE OF LAW MATTER?
>> THE ARGUMENT THEY WILL MADE
IS QUID PRO QUOs HAPPEN IN
FOREIGN POLICY ALL THE TIME.
IS THE THING A LEGITIMATE
FOREIGN PALES ASK PURSUING
CORRUPTION OR WAS THIS A
PERSONAL THING?
PERSONAL THING? IF THERE IS ANY WIGGLE ROOM
THERE, THAT’S WHERE THE
REPUBLICANS --
REPUBLICANS -- >> THEY DIDN’T IT’S PERSONAL.
THE PRESIDENT SAID THESE ARE BAD
PEOPLE, THEY WANTED TO TAKE ME
DOWN, TALKING TO THE UKRAINIAN
OFFICIALS, DIRECT QUOTES IN
THESE TRANSCRIPTS.
THESE TRANSCRIPTS. YOU ARE SAYING THIS NATION A LOT
OF SENSE, THIS IS IN SOME WAY
VERY, VERY PERSONAL FOR THIS
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. >> AS YOSH JUST MENTIONED,
SONDLAND CONFIRMED HIS DECEMBER
DENIAL OF A QUID PRO QUO IN A
TECH MESSAGE CAME DIRECTLY FROM
THE PRESIDENT, HIMSELF,
DESCRIBING THAT CONVERSATION
WITH THE PRESIDENT SONDLAND
SAYS, I ASKED HIM ONE
OPEN-ENEDED QUESTION.
OPEN-ENEDED QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM UKRAINE?
HE SAID, I WANT NOTHING, I WANT
NO QUID PRO QUO, I WANT ZELENSKY
TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
SAND LOND ADDED I DON’T KNOW IF
IT WAS THE TRUTH OR WASN’T THE
TRUTH.
TRUTH. THAT’S WHAT HE TOLD ME.
HE WAS ONLY OBEYING ORDERS.
>> LIKE EVERY BAD MAFIA LINE.
LISTEN, I’M NOT TELLING YOU TO
HURT ANYBODY, I’M JUST SAYIN’ --
THAT’S WHAT WE HAVE HERE.
IT’S SO TRANSPARENT THAT IT’S
LAUGHABLE.
LAUGHABLE. >> WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THIS
VOLKER’S TESTIMONY ABOUT RUDY
GUILIANI HAVING TO TELL THEM,
EVERYBODY THIS, DO WHAT RUDY
TELLS YOU TO DO.
>> WE LEARNED FROM THESE
TRANSCRIPTS THAT POMPEO WAS
ESSENTIALLY ROLLING HIS EYES AT
GUILIANI SAYING THIS IS A
PROBLEM WE’VE GOT TO DEAL WITH
AND THE IMPRESSION FROM FOLKS
AROUND HIM WAS POMPEO AND THE
STATE DEPARTMENT WANTED GUILIANI
OUT OF THIS BUT HAD TO HIT A
BRICK WALL IN TRYING TO GET
GUILIANI REMOVED FROM THE
UKRAINE POLICY --
>> EVERYBODY IS WORD IS PASSED
AMONG FOREIGN POLICY CIVIL
SERVANTS, FOREIGN OFFICERS, DO
WHAT RUDY WANTS?
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. >> THIS IS MOB STUFF.
>> RUDY IS THE ENFORCER.
DO WHAT THIS GUY WANTS.
>> THE PRESIDENT IN THE MEETINGS
ESSENTIALLY SAY TWO THINGS, ONE,
RUDY GUILIANI IS GOING TO HAND
HIM THIS, TALK TO HIM.
HE ALSO IS IN SOME WAY
IMPLICATES PEOPLE AROUND HIM.
THERE IS THIS MENTION OF THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE MENTION OF
THE SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE
POMPEO.
POMPEO. SO I THINK IT WILL BE
INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT OTHER
CHARACTERS EMERGE AND WHETHER OR
NOT THOSE PEOPLE WILL BE AS
LOYAL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE
THINKS THEY WILL BE.
>> IT LOOKS MORE AND MORE LIKE
THAT DRUG DEAL BOLTON CALLED.
AMBASSADOR SWROLKER ONE OF THE
35 AMIGO, ONE OF THE THREE
HENCHMEN FOR THE PRESIDENT.
HE TESTIFIED HE WARNED GUILIANI
THE FORMER MAYOR WAS OFF BASE
WHEN IT CAME TO HIS THEORIES
ABOUT JOE BIDEN.
ACCORDING TO TRANSCRIPT OF HIS
DEPOSITION, HE TOLD GUILIANI IT
IS SIMPLY MOT CREDIBLE TO ME
THAT JOE BIDEN WOULD BE
INFLUENCED IN HIS DUTIES FOR
MONEY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT HE
SAID THE NEGATIVE NARRATIVE
ABOUT UKRAINE MR. GUILIANI WAS
FURTHERING WAS THE PROBLEM.
IT WAS, IN MY VIEW, IT WAS
IMPEDING BUILDING OUR
RELATIONSHIP THE WAY WE SHOULD
BE DOING THIS.
THIS IS THE HARDEST THING TO
ABSORB.
ABSORB. THERE ARE HUMAN BEINGS,
INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT WHO
BELIEVE THAT SOMEHOW THE
DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE
SERVER SOMEHOW FOUND ITS WAY TO
KIEV AND IT’S SITTING OVER THERE
IN PHYSICAL SPACE IN REALITY,
THAT IS, IN FACT, AND WHAT TO
THE HACKING.
THE HACKING. IT WASN’T A HACKING BY THE
RUSSIANS.
RUSSIANS. IT WAS A HACKING BY I GO ES THE
YOU
YOU GUESS THE UKRAINIANS WHO SOMEHOW
GOT THE SERVER OVER THERE.
THAT’S WHAT THEY WANTED
INVESTIGATED.
INVESTIGATED. THIS WHACKY THEORY.
>> I JUST GOT BACK FROM KIEV ON
FRIDAY NIGHT, CHRIS.
I CAN TELL YOU I DID NOT FIND
THE SERVER ANYWHERE OVER THERE.
I DID LOOK FOR IT.
THIS IS SIMILAR TO SOMETHING --
>> PEOPLE BUY CRAZY, I SAID THIS
BEFORE, I REMEMBER THE COVER OF
THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER, THEY TOOK
A PICTURE OF JACK KENNEDY WHEN
HE WAS ALIVE AND MADE HIM OLDER
IN A HIGH SCHOOL PLAY, DUSTED
HIM UP, MADE HIM LOOK GREY AND
HAD THIS OLDER JACK KENNEDY
PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING OUT THROUGH A
CURTAIN.
CURTAIN. JACK KENNEDY THE ALIVE IN
POLAND.
POLAND. THIS CRAZY TALK IS IN THE
PRESIDENT’S HEAD.
PRESIDENT’S HEAD. HE BUYS INTO THIS KIND OF STUFF
THAT THEY RUN IN THE NATIONAL
ENQUIRER AND THOSE TABS.
>> AND THE PRESIDENT’S HOMELAND
SECURITY ADVISER AT THE TIME TOM
BOSSERT TOLD HIM THIS WAS A
DEBUNKED THEORY, THERE WAS NO
EVIDENCE OF THIS.
WE SEE TIME AND AGAIN THIS GETS
IN HIS HEAD.
WE HEARD THE PRESIDENT SAID OVER
AND OVER AGAIN, THESE GUYS TRIED
TO TAKE ME DOWN.
HE HAS AN IMAGE ABOUT UKRAINE
AND YOU CAN’T SHAKE IT.
>> IS THAT BECAUSE MANAFORT WAS
SELLING THAT STORY TO HIM?
>> PROBABLY BECAUSE IT SEEMS
RUDY GUILIANI PLAYED A LARGE
RULE IN FERMENTING THAT AS WELL.
>> THEY TELL NE THE PRESIDENT
BASICALLY HEARD SOME UKRAINIAN
OFFICIALS CRITICIZING HIM AND AS
A RESULT THEY DECIDED
ESSENTIALLY THE WHOLE COUNTRY
WAS AGAINST HIM.
>> THAT IS ALSO INFORMING WHY HE
FEELS TO PERSONALLY AGGRIEVED BY
UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. >> I THINK HIS WHOLE BODY
REEQUITYS TRUTH.
REEQUITYS TRUTH. HE COULDN’T ACCEPT THE FACT THAT
BARACK OBAMA WAS ELECTED
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. HE SAID HE WAS A BIRTHER FROM
SOME OTHER COUNTRY.
IT DIDN’T HAPPEN.
HE HAS TO SAY THE RUSSIANS
DIDN’T HELP ME.
HE CAME ONE THIS DOCK A MAIMY
UKRAINE THEORY.
UKRAINE THEORY. ANYTHING TO GET OUT OF HIS HEAD