AMERICA SHOULD BE SENT HOME. WOW.
WOW. THAT BRINGS US TO THE MUCH
ANTICIPATED NEW BOOK.
"AMERICAN CARNAGE, ON THE FRONT
LINES OF THE THE REPUBLICAN
CIVIL WAR AND THE RISE OF
PRESIDENT TRUMP."
PRESIDENT TRUMP." JOINING US NOW IS THE BOOK’S
AUTHOR, CHIEF POLITICAL
CORRESPONDENT FOR "POLITICO"
MAGAZINE, TIM ALBERTA.
TIM, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE
BOOK.
BOOK. >> THANK YOU.
>> THANKS SO MUCH, TIM.
WE GREATLY APPRECIATE YOU BEING
HERE.
HERE. YOU KNOW, IT’S SO INTERESTING
NOW WE JUST TALKED ABOUT A POLL
THAT SHOWED NINE OUT OF TEN
REPUBLICANS SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP
AND THE JOB HE’S DOING.
YOU CAN FIND LINDSEY GRAHAM
CALLING HIM A RACIST, DISGUSTING
SAYING HE’D DESTROY THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY AND MY SON
REMINDED ME THIS WEEKEND OF THE
EARLY DEBATES AND I MUST ADMIT I
FORGOT ABOUT IT.
DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE BOOED
OVERWHELMINGLY INSIDE THOSE
EARLY REPUBLICAN DEBATES.
IT WAS HARD TO IMAGINE HE WAS
ANYTHING BUT THE LOSER OF THOSE
DEBATES.
DEBATES. IF YOU JUST LISTENED TO THE
AUDIENCE RESPONSES BECAUSE THEY
WOULD ROUNDLY BOO HIM.
NOW, THE ENTIRE PARTY IS FALLING
IN LINE.
IN LINE. >> THEY HAVE.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT’S ACTUALLY
REALLY INTERESTING TO THINK
ABOUT THE EARLY DEBATES AS WELL
IS IMAGINE THE WORLD WE’RE
LIVING IN.
LIVING IN. LET’S GO TO AN ALTERNATE
UNIVERSE FOR A MINUTE.
IMAGINE THE WORLD WE’RE LIVING
IN IF TED CRUZ AND RUBIO AND
KASICH WHO FINISHED UP TWO,
THREE AND FOUR BEHIND DONALD
TRUMP IF THEY HAD FORCEFULLY
GONE AFTER DONALD TRUMP, IF THEY
HADN’T WAITED SIX MONTHS TO
BEGIN THEIR ASSAULT TO KEEP HIM
FROM WINNING THE NOMINATION.
THEY BELIEVED HE WOULD IMPLODE
OR STEP ASIDE ON HIS OWN AND
IT’S AMAZING.
IT’S AMAZING. I RECOUNT WITH CRUZ ESPECIALLY
IN THE BOOK HOW HIS CAMPAIGN
WENT THROUGH THIS SORT OF
TORTURED, STRATEGIC THINKING
ABOUT WELL, WE CAN’T AFFORD TO
ALIENATE SOME OF TRUMP
SUPPORTERS BECAUSE WHEN HE GETS
OUT OF THE RACE THEY’LL COME TO
US.
US. AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS
FIGURED OUT BETTER THAN ANYBODY
SO MANY OF THE REPUBLICANS ARE
WEAK, AFRAID OF CONFRONTATION.
WHY EVERYONE WONDERS WHY THERE’S
RADIO SILENCE IN RESPONSE TO THE
TWEETS IT’S FOR THE SAME REASON
THAT NONE OF THEM TOOK HIM ON IN
THE PRIMARY SEASON BECAUSE
THEY’RE AFRAID OF HIM.
THEY’RE NOT ORIENTED TOWARD
POLITICAL CONFRONTATION AND
TRUMP SMELLED THAT WEAKNESS AND
WENT AFTER IT.
>> THEY DON’T KNOW HOW TO FIGHT
INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY,
YOU’RE EXACTLY RIGHT.
WE BROUGHT UP -- I SAID TO PAUL
RYAN IN REALTIME, DON’T ENDORSE
HIM UNLESS YOU GET SOMETHING
BACK FROM HIM BECAUSE TRUMP WILL
THINK YOU’RE WEAK AND SURE
ENOUGH, THAT WAS THE CASE.
BUT YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE
PEOPLE, LINDSEY GRAHAM, AND YOU
BROUGHT UP -- I WOULD SAY MITT
ROMNEY BECAUSE HE HASN’T SAID
ANYTHING YET.
ANYTHING YET. BUT TED CRUZ IS A PERFECT
EXAMPLE.
EXAMPLE. HERE IS A GUY WHO DONALD TRUMP
ATTACKED, SAID HIS FATHER
ASSASSINATED JFK AND CALLED HIS
WIFE UGLY BY TWEET.
NOW, FOR MOST AMERICANS IF
SOMEONE DID THAT TO YOU YOU’D GO
AFTER THAT PERSON FOR THE REST
OF YOUR LIFE POLITICALLY.
I MEAN, I WOULD NOT SLEEP UNTIL
THAT PERSON’S POLITICAL CAREER
WAS DESTROYED.
WAS DESTROYED. TED CRUZ NOW DEFENDS DONALD
TRUMP.
TRUMP. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. AND THE AMAZING THING IS I HAVE
THIS WONDERFUL SCENE IN THE BOOK
IN WHICH TED CRUZ’S CRAFTING HIS
CONVENTION SPEECH.
CONVENTION SPEECH. HE’S UNDER PRESSURE FROM A LOT
OF THE ADVISERS TO GO AHEAD AND
ENDORSE DONALD TRUMP, LOOK YOU
HAVE A LONG CAREER IN FRONT OF
YOU.
YOU. YOU’RE THE RUNNER-UP FOR THE
NOMINATION, LET’S NOT DO
ANYTHING RASH HERE.
SAY WE HAVE HAD OUR DIFFERENCES
BUT I WANT THE PARTY TO UNITE
AROUND DONALD TRUMP IN NOVEMBER,
ET CETERA.
ET CETERA. ET CETERA.
ET CETERA. CRUZ REFUSES AND HE LOOKS AT THE
ADVISERS THE DAY BEFORE THAT
CONVENTION SPEECH IN CLEVELAND
WHEN THEY’RE GIVING THE LAST
DITCH APPEAL AND HE SAYS, GUYS,
HISTORY IS NOT KIND TO THE MAN
WHO HOLDS MUSSOLINI’S JACKET.
AND IT WAS THIS MOMENT THAT
EVERYBODY AROUND REMEMBERS IN
THIS CLARIFYING MOMENT.
IT’S SO APPROPRIATE NOW AS YOU
MOVE FORWARD AND THINK ABOUT NOT
JUST CRUZ OBVIOUSLY BUT REALLY
THE PARTY WRIT LARGE.
SO MANY OF THE FOLKS WHO VOICED
THEIR CONCERNS PUBLICLY AND
PRIVATELY DURING THE CAMPAIGN
WHO HAVE SWALLOWED THEM, WHO
HAVE TURNED A BLIND EYE TO THIS.
YOU DO WONDER HOW HISTORY WILL
RECALL THEM.
RECALL THEM. >> JONATHAN LEMIRE, PICKING UP
ON TED CRUZ’S OWN LANGUAGE, YOU
HAVE A GUY WHO IS CARRYING
MUSSOLINI’S SUITCASES.
MUSSOLINI’S SUITCASES. HE’S CARRYING HIS WATER, HE’S
CARRYING THE SUITCASES, HE’S
CARRYING EVERYTHING.
CARRYING EVERYTHING. HOW DO YOU GO FROM THINKING WHAT
LINDSEY GRAHAM THOUGHT ABOUT
DONALD TRUMP THEN TO NOW OR IF
YOU’RE TED CRUZ, YOU THINK THIS
GUY IS MUSSOLINI AND NOW YOU’RE
OKAY WITH HIM.
YOU LET HIM COME AND CAMPAIGN
FOR YOU IN YOUR STATE DESPITE
THE FACT THAT HE ACCUSED YOUR
FATHER OF ASSASSINATING JFK AND
CALLED YOUR WIFE UGLY.
>> WHO DOES THAT?
>> WHO DOES THAT?
>> NOT ONLY THAT, BUT SENATOR
CRUZ’S ADVISERS WERE DESPERATE
FOR THE PRESIDENT TO COME TO THE
RALLY IN TEXAS AND POLLS SHOWED
HIM IN THE VIRTUAL DEAD HEAT
WITH BETO O’ROURKE IN THE SENATE
RACE.
RACE. YES, CRUZ AND GRAHAM ARE TWO
BASIC EXAMPLES WHO AT ONE POINT
SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
AND HAVE NOW HELD THEIR TONGUES
AND ENDORSED MORE OR LESS
EVERYTHING HE’S DONE.
AND THEN PAUL RYAN, THE
PRESIDENT HAS GIVEN YOUR BOOK
SOME FREE ADVERTISING AND
FOCUSED ON THE RYAN SECTION OF
IT.
IT. TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT
THOSE CONVERSATIONS YOU HAD WITH
THE FORMER SPEAKER, AND WHAT HE
THOUGHT PRIVATELY ABOUT THE
PRESIDENT WHICH WHEN HE WAS IN
GOVERNING DIDN’T SAY PUBLICLY.
>> WELL, IT’S BEEN A HECK OF A
WEEK.
WEEK. IF I HAD TO DRAW UP A TOP TEN
LIST OF THINGS IN THE BOOK THAT
WOULD HAVE EVOKED A TWEET STORM
FROM THE PRESIDENT I’M NOT SURE
THAT RYAN’S COMMENTARY WOULD
HAVE MADE THE CUT.
LOOK, RYAN HAD THE VERY TORTURED
2 1/2 YEAR STRETCH FROM THE
MOMENT THAT TRUMP CLINCHED THE
NOMINATION HE TOLD MYSELF I HAVE
TO PIPE DOWN.
I HAVE TO HARNESS THE CRITICISMS
I CAN’T SPEAK OUT EVERY DAY.
BUT IF YOU RECALL, ABOUT THREE
WEEKS AFTER RYAN FINALLY
ENDORSED DONALD TRUMP IN LATE
MAY OF 2016 THIS THIS WAS RIGHT
AROUND THE TIME THAT THE JUDGE
CURUAL THING BLEW UP.
HE BASICALLY CALLED TRUMP A
RACIST AND SO THEIR RELATIONSHIP
BASELY DETERIORATED OVER THE
SUMMER INTO THE FALL.
RYAN WAS TELLING EVERYBODY WHO
WOULD LISTEN, LISTEN, HE WON’T
WIN THE PRESIDENCY I DON’T CARE
ABOUT PLAYING NICE WITH HIM.
WE NEED TO POSITION OURSELVES
FOR A POST TRUMP REPUBLICAN
PARTY AND ON ELECTION NIGHT,
RYAN HAD A SPEECH HE WAS READY
TO GIVE IN WISCONSIN, I WAS
THERE, HE WAS READY TO GIVE A
SPEECH DENOUNCING TRUMPISM AND
BASICALLY USING ELECTION NIGHT
TO TURN THE PAGE ON THE UGLY
CHAPTER AND THEN TRUMP WINS.
AND THEN RYAN PUTS THE SPEECH
BACK IN HIS POCKET, HE NEEDS TO
MAKE THE BEST OF A BAD SITUATION
HERE.
HERE. >> GOOD LORD.
>> LOOK, NOBODY AROUND RYAN WILL
DENY THE FACT THIS WAS A REALLY,
REALLY TORTURED EXPERIENCE FOR
HIM BECAUSE PRIVATELY HE WOULD
SAY ALMOST EVERY DAY.
LOOK, THIS GUY IS KILLING US.
HE’S IMMORAL.
HE’S IMMORAL. UNETHICAL.
UNETHICAL. HE’S UNFIT FOR OFFICE.
BUT RYAN FELT AS THOUGH THAT ANY
DAY SPENT WASTED TANGLING WITH
TRUMP WAS A DAY NOT SPENT
ADVANCING THE LEGISLATIVE
AGENDA.
AGENDA. HE SAID I CAN’T BE THE SPEAKER
OF THE HOUSE AND BE A CRITIC.
THEY FEEL LIKE RYAN SHOULD HAVE
DONE MUCH MORE TO HOLD THE
PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE AND WHEN
RYAN AND I SAT DOWN AFTER HE
LEFT OFFICE YOU COULD SEE THE
RELIEF AND THE LIBERATION JUST
WASHING OVER HIM.
HE OFFERED ME A BEER.
IT WAS LIKE 1:45 IN THE
AFTERNOON.
AFTERNOON. I THOUGHT TO MYSELF THIS IS
GOING TO BE GOOD AND HE
UNCORKED.
UNCORKED. HE HAD A LOT TO SAY ABOUT TRUMP.
I ASKED HIM, WHY WAIT UNTIL NOW?
AND HE SAID, LOOK, I COULDN’T DO
MY JOB IF I WAS SOUNDING OFF ON
THIS GUY EVERY DAY.
THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY THE
CALCULATION HE MADE.
OBVIOUSLY AGAIN A LOT OF FOLKS
DISAGREE WITH THAT CALCULATION.
>> THAT’S ONE MORE STORY FROM A
DEEPLY, DEEPLY AND WELL REPORTED
BOOK THAT YOU HAVE OUT NOW.
IT’S INCREDIBLE.
IT’S INCREDIBLE. THE PAUL RYAN STORY IS DEEPLY
DEPRESSING.
DEPRESSING. AT THE RISK OF SETTING OFF
CLAIRE McCASKILL EARLY THOUGH, I
WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER
REPUBLICAN WHO SEEMS TO BE
PIVOTAL AND I THINK HISTORY
MIGHT REGARD THIS INDIVIDUAL,
MITCH McCONNELL, AS THE CRITICAL
CHARACTER IN TRUMPISM.
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. YOU KNOW IT’S INTERESTING.
IF YOU WERE TO USE RYAN, PAUL
RYAN, AS ONE POLL OF HOW THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS REACTING TO
DONALD TRUMP THROUGHOUT HIS
ASCENT I THINK MITCH McCONNELL
IS THE OTHER POLL.
McCONNELL KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT.
HE WAS VERY DISCIPLINED AND
CAREFUL NOT TO POKE THE BEAR.
McCONNELL WHO HAS A FINELY TUNED
POLITICAL ANTENNA, HE COULD SEE
THAT SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING IN
THE REPUBLICAN BASE.
HE COULD SEE THERE WAS SOMETHING
BREWING AND McCONNELL KNEW HE
HIMSELF HEADED INTO RE-ELECTION
NEEDED TO BE ON THE RIGHT SIDE
OF THIS SO McCONNELL WAS VERY
CAREFUL, VERY CAGEY.
HE MADE SURE HE DIDN’T ALIENATE
ANY OF HIS SUPPORTERS AND HE
SAID, LOOK, PAUL IS GOING TO
HANDLE THE POLICY, I’M GOING TO
HANDLE THE PERSONNEL.
THAT MEANS JUDGES.
RIGHT, THAT MEANS CONFIRMATION
HEARINGS AND McCONNELL BASICALLY
TOOK THE SAME TACK AS RYAN AT
THAT POINT, LOOK, ANY DAY SPENT
GETTING INTO VERBAL SPATS WITH
DONALD TRUMP IS A DAY THAT IT
MAKES IT HARDER FOR US TO
CONFIRM ANY JUDGES OR MORE
REALISTICALLY A DAY THAT’S
HARDER FOR US TO DO PUSH THE
WHITE HOUSE TO GIVE US JUDGES TO
CONFIRM AND McCONNELL REALLY
AGAIN GOING BACK TO THE CAMPAIGN
IT’S INTERESTING.
IT’S INTERESTING. McCONNELL MADE THE CALCULATION
VERY EARLY THAT THE PRESIDENCY
WAS GOING TO HINGE NOT ONLY ON
DONALD TRUMP VERSUS HILLARY
CLINTON BUT THAT THE PRESIDENCY
WAS GOING TO HINGE ON THIS OPEN
SUPREME COURT SEAT.
AND McCONNELL TOLD SOME OF HIS
ADVISERS WITHIN A WEEK OF
ANTONIN SCALIA OF PASSING, IF WE
HOLD THIS SEAT OPEN IT’S NOT
JUST THE PRESIDENCY IN BALANCE
BUT THE SUPREME COURT.
THERE’S NO WAY THAT DONALD TRUMP
WINS THE PRESIDENCY WITHOUT THAT
SUPREME COURT HANGING IN THE
BALANCE.
BALANCE. >> SO --
>> SO -- >> CLAIRE McCASKILL, I SPOKE
WITH MITCH DURING THE REPUBLICAN
NATIONAL CONVENTION IN CLEVELAND
AND HE TOLD ME AT THAT TIME THAT
HE DIDN’T -- YOU KNOW, HE WAS
LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS GUY
DOESN’T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
POLICY, HE DOESN’T CARE ABOUT
JUDGE.
JUDGE. I DON’T LOVE WHAT HE SAYS BUT
YOU KNOW WHAT, LET HIM GET
ELECTED.
ELECTED. WE’LL PASS THE BILLS.
WE’LL PASS THE JUDGES.
HE’LL RUBBER STAMP THEM AND IT
WILL BE GOOD FOR THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY.
PARTY. THAT WAS HIS ATTITUDE THEN AND
IT’S STILL APPARENTLY HIS
ATTITUDE TODAY.
ATTITUDE TODAY. >> YEAH, MITCH McCONNELL TOOK
LEMONS AND MADE IT INTO
LEMONADE.
LEMONADE. HE’S THE ULTIMATE POLITICAL
OPPORTUNIST AND HE SAW AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR POWER.
HE KNEW HE WOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE
HIS WAY IN TERMS OF TRYING TO
SET THE JUDICIARY FOR A
GENERATION, A FEDERAL JUDICIARY,
LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS.
LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS. HE SAW THAT AS THE HIDDEN GEM IN
TRUMP FRANKLY BEING GROSSLY
INCOMPETENT.
INCOMPETENT. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE
HAD IS THEY HAVE NOT VETTED VERY
WELL AT THE WHITE HOUSE.
WHICH HAS CAUSED PROBLEMS
OBVIOUSLY WITH THE CABINET, BUT
ALSO WITH THE JUDICIARY.
I’M INTERESTED IN WHEN YOU SAT
DOWN WITH PAUL RYAN, WHEN I
REMEMBER MY TIME IN THE SENATE
THE 12 YEARS I WAS THERE, THE
RECURRING THEME IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS FISCAL
RESPONSIBILITY.
RESPONSIBILITY. I MEAN, IT WAS QUAINT WHEN YOU
THINK BACK TO THE TEA PARTY
MOVEMENT.
MOVEMENT. THAT WAS ALL ABOUT FISCAL
RESPONSIBILITY.
RESPONSIBILITY. AND, YOU KNOW, THE DEBT AND
DEFICIT.
DEFICIT. HOW FRUSTRATED -- I MEAN, DOES
PAUL RYAN REALIZE THAT THAT PART
OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS
COMPLETELY EXPLODED AND THEY ARE
NOW ONCE AGAIN THE LEADERS OF
THE MOST FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE
GOVERNMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
>> I THINK PAUL RYAN NOT ONLY
REALIZES IT BUT I THINK PAUL
RYAN HAS COME TO TERMS WITH THE
FACT THAT HE WAS THE ONE WHO
PROBABLY LIT THE FUSE ON THE
DYNAMITE THAT EXPLODED IT.
I TALKED ABOUT TO THE EARLIER
POINT, SENATOR, IN THE BOOK
"AMERICAN CARNAGE" AVAILABLE FOR
PREORDER ON TUESDAY, THAT PAUL
RYAN WAS IN THIS REALLY
INTERESTING SITUATION BECAUSE HE
WAS IN CONGRESS BEFORE THE TEA
PARTY WAVE CAME ALONG AND HE WAS
AT FIRST VERY, VERY ENCOURAGED
IN 2010 WHEN HE SAW ALL OF THESE
INSURGENT OUTSIDE CONSERVATIVES
RUNNING FOR CONGRESS.
OF COURSE AS WE ALL RECALL AT
THE TIME THE MESSAGE FROM THE
TEA PARTY WAS ALL FISCAL.
IT WAS OBAMA’S BANKRUPTING THE
COUNTRY AND TOO MUCH SPENDING.
TOO MUCH DEBT.
THE DEFICIT’S OUT OF CONTROL.
IF WE DON’T GET THIS BACK WITHIN
OUR MEANS, IF WE DON’T START
SPENDING WITHIN OUR MEANS IF WOE
DON’T BEND DOWN THE FISCAL
TRAJECTORY OF THE COUNTRY WE’LL
GO OVER THE CLIFF LIKE GREECE.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VOTING
RECORDS OF SOME OF TO 2010
REPUBLICANS AND HOW THEY HAVE
VOTED SINCE DONALD TRUMP CAME
INTO OFFICE ON ANY NUMBER OF
THINGS THAT HAVE BLOWN UP THE
DEFICIT, AHHED TO -- ADDED TO
THE DEBT, ONE HAS TO REACH THE
CONCLUSION THAT MAYBE JUST MAYBE
THAT THE TEA PARTY WASN’T ABOUT
THE FISCAL ISSUES.
MAYBE IT WAS A CULTURE ISSUE AND
I THINK THAT THAT IS SO
IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT DONALD
TRUMP MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY EVEN MORE
SO THAN TED CRUZ HE IDENTIFIED I
THINK VERY, VERY EARLY ON THAT
MANY REPUBLICANS ESPECIALLY MANY
CULTURALLY CONSERVATIVE
CULTURALLY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS IN THE BASE OF THE
PARTY THEY DON’T CARE THAT MUCH
ABOUT POLICY.
ABOUT POLICY. THEY CARE ABOUT CULTURE.
THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS ABLE TO TAP
INTO SO EFFECTIVELY.
>> THAT’S RIGHT.
>> WELL, WE’LL HAVE MUCH MORE
AHEAD WITH TIM ALBERTA ON HIS
NEW BOOK "AMERICAN CARNAGE"
INCLUDING A NICKNAME FOR THE
VICE PRESIDENT THAT WAS COINED
ON CAPITOL HILL.
MIKE PENCE OFTEN AND EAGERLY
NODS ALONG AS THE PRESIDENT