So who's heard of this guy, huh?
Let me let me ask you guys,
how many people have read this book?
I'm telling you guys, there's a lot of
really good principles in this book.
So let's let's if we can.
Chris, there's people here that haven't studied you
and don't know you yet.
Let's just talk a little bit about your career.
I know it, but I'd love to hear it from you.
All right.
What's the short version?
I grew up in Iowa.
Small town going to law enforcement cop in Kansas City, Missouri,
for a few years, joined the FBI, FBI hostage negotiator.
Ultimately, I'm in charge of globally international kidnapings
response to any American who gets kidnaped anywhere overseas.
My job to figure out a negotiation strategy to get him out
while I was still with the FBI started working with Harvard
to learn about negotiation because we had a case of go back, went
bad, talked about it talk about in the book was an ugly train wreck.
People got killed and decided we had to get better started collaborate
with the guys at Harvard Law School Harvard program on negotiation.
And while I was there, they said to me, You're doing the same stuff we're doing.
It's just the stakes are different, but all the dynamics are the same.
Get out of the FBI, decide we're going to adapt hostage negotiation to everything.
Business colleagues, family, you name it.
It works across
because it's emotional Intelligence is applied emotional intelligence.
Now, it's interesting because there's a lot of things
I want to talk about in this book.
I've literally read this at least a half a dozen times, studied it,
had study groups around it.
The one of the most
amazing things is that you mentioned this negotiation is not a battle.
No. Right, exactly. Yeah.
And I think a lot of times people think it is. Yeah.
So can you walk through that a little bit?
Yeah.
Well, I mean that everybody worries about negotiation.
A person you think you're going to count on
the other side is you expect to be attacked.
And most of the self proclaimed great negotiators, they like to attack.
They see it as combat. They want to do battle.
But in point of fact, if you're in a negotiation with somebody,
both of you are faced with different sides.
The exact same problem,
and you need to work together
to maximize the outcome.
And as soon as as soon as you go into collaboration out of cutthroat,
you make more money.
One of our one of our top performing coaching clients.
And we just we gathered this group together
in Las Vegas just a couple of days ago because that's where I live.
And he said, When you taught me collaboration,
I made more money being collaborative than I ever may, being cutthroat.
And he was good at being cutthroat and had tasted how good that felt.
Or what he likes more is all the extra money in his bank account.
Yeah.
And so being collaborative is a key to make a lot more money
and fewer enemies.
What are what are some of the the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable?
So that's that's an art that you maybe have to practice.
Yeah, well, I mean, you got to practice anything.
I mean, it's all an art and a science combined and everybody learns everything.
But yeah, like,
if I disagree with you, especially, you know, my tone of voice could.
Could tell you that I don't like you
or that I think you're
stupid or that I'm insulted, you know, so.
So the real beginning is
the phrase, how am I supposed to do that?
Which is the opening story in a book. Book?
Like a lot of people have turned deals around
by just looking at the other side and saying, Am I supposed to do that?
That's the best.
And, you know, I could just change.
I go, How am I supposed to do that?
And my tone of voice insults you.
Or if I'd say, how am I supposed to do that?
I mean, I'm inviting you to collaborate with me.
You know, let's figure this out together and let's not be enemies.
And that's that's a way to be disagreeable without,
you know, disagree, without being disagreeable to say it.
Nice.
I know in reading your book, there was all kinds of scenarios
I can think clearly about Some of those bank hostage situations you had.
Right. How do you draw out that information?
It's really easy and really counterintuitive to get somebody talking,
which is, first of all, you give them a chance to talk
and then they expect you to disagree or correct them.
Like real soon, like most people,
if they listen at all, they only listen long enough to disagree.
Go. Aha!
Or he's a counterpoint. Yep.
And so somebody old start talking just to test to see how long
it takes you to be disagreeable.
And when you're not, then they just start to open up
a phrase and hostage negotiation is what it's going to take to get the bad guy out.
He's going to tell us if we shut up long enough
and actually listen.
And then there's different triggers
the way you can get stuff out of people real quick again.
And I'll give
I'll give all you guys one here that we're giving everybody right now.
Anybody that you talk to here,
as soon as you get the chance,
instead of asking them where they live or what they do,
ask them what do
they love about where they live?
Or ask them what do they love about what they do for a living.
Now you're going to find out where they live
or are you going to find out what they do?
But if you start there, I mean, that's an emotional state change.
You know, I learned a lot from Tony Robbins.
He talks about state changes all the time.
If you ask somebody, what do you love about what you do?
I ask this of my Lyft driver on the way to the airport the other day.
They immediately transform into thinking about that aspect of their life
that they love.
And you could see them change
in the moment, whatever kind of mood they're it.
That's the intentional application of emotional intelligence.
As somebody a what or how question.
Which triggers a certain type of thought drop
in the emotion, the emotional place you'd like for them to be
and watch them transform in front of your eyes.
Let's see.
We could get into some of the techniques.
One of them that I love is mirroring.
You know, I've watched your masterclass.
You're all over the Internet. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Obviously, I've seen you talk about it, but never in person.
Never in person.
Nice. You tried.
Did you try to hook me? It?
Yeah. The mirror.
Mirror, mirror is a really cool skill. It's not.
It's not you know, it's not the body language mirror.
It's it's not the physical thing or tonality thing at all.
Like, you know, a lot of people teach you.
I was going to marry him.
You know, I put my hands up like this, and it's physical alignment.
And when people develop rapport, you know, they tend to start to physically align.
Then the people that I don't trust start that right off the bat.
And I'm always very concerned
about somebody tries to physically mimic me or mimic my tone of voice,
and they're going to take me someplace that I'm not particularly
I may not want to go.
I find that is very that's a very highly manipulative technique.
But the hostage negotiators mirror the Black Swan.
Mares Just repeat in the last couple of words of what somebody said,
it's ridiculously simple.
I find people who have simultaneously very high IQ.
I am not high IQ, very high IQ, very high IQ, love it
because it's so simple, like minimal amount of effort.
Get the other person talk and keep them going.
Then when you go from repeating the last three words of what they said
and you move it around and you pick three words here,
any time anybody says something that you want
clarification on, you can say, What do you mean by that?
And they probably won't do a great job elaborating.
But if you marry those exact words, the message you send is,
I heard what you said. I got the words.
It's not quite enough for me.
What do you mean by that? Could you please go on?
That's all rolled into the mirror and people respond to it
incredibly and it's a great thing for keeping conversations going.
Let's talk about the the three kinds of. Yes.
Commitment, confirmation and kind of I love this part.
Can you explain that a bit?
Yeah.
You know, so many people are trapped by. Yes.
You know, Yes.
Momentum. Momentum selling, they call it. Yes.
A micro agreement or tied down.
And then theoretically, you get the three tied downs and you got them tied down.
They've got to make the deal.
Well, everybody's been hustled at some point on that.
Everybody's used it.
Everybody's been flimflam to bamboozle with the momentum.
So consequently, as soon as somebody tries to get you to start to say yes,
like, where's this gone?
How are you telling me down. What, what, where's the trap?
Where's the hook that you're trying to set on me?
And that's why the counter for Yes.
Is the vast majority of the yeses.
I mean, even if it's not counterfeit, the most a yes ever is is aspirational even.
Or even if it's somebody that wants to do it.
It's aspirational. Yes. Is nothing without how
and really.
Yes, is nothing. And how is everything?
So everybody that we coach, we like get out of the business.
Just get out of it.
Because if you're not an easy business,
you're not getting tripped up by counterfeit. Yes.
Or inadequate. Yes.
Or they didn't think it through. Yes.
I mean, all of a sudden nonsensical.
Yes. Is it just lead to train wrecks
broken deals, lack of implementation, broken trust?
What's the best way people can reach you?
Our website is Black swan l2 dot com black S.W.A.T.
and LTE AECOM.
We got a lot of stuff there that's free.
We got a weekly newsletter that's complimentary, it's actionable.
There's a lot of stuff that's either free or inexpensive
to help people raise the level of their game.
Well, we're all great really here, Chris.
Thank you, guys. Thank you
both. Thank you. I should.