ATTORNEY JOYCE VANCE WHO IS AN
MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR.
GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.
JOYCE, PRESIDENT BIDEN RAN ON
REFORMING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
AS HIS OWN CHIEF OF STAFF POINTS
OUT.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> ONE REASON WHY JOE BIDEN GOT
ELECTED WAS HE PROMISED THAT
WE'D TAKE THE DECISION OVER WHO
GOT PROSECUTED AND WHAT AWAY
FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND PUT IT
IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.
ONLY RICHARD NIXON AND DONALD
TRUMP IN THE MODERN ERA BELIEVE
THAT PROSECUTION DECISIONS
SHOULD BE MADE IN THE OVAL
OFFICE, NOT AT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT.
WE HAVE RETURNED THE PRACTICE OF
EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT,
DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN HAS
HAD SINCE WARETERGATE.
YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE ATTENTION
NEEDED ON CONCERN OF THE PART OF
THE WHITE HOUSE AS ALL OF THIS
BEING UNDERSTOOD AS POLITICAL?
>> SO, I THINK RON KLAIN, THE
CHIEF OF STAFF, GETS IT EXACTLY
RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, NONE OF THIS IS EASY.
THERE'S NOT A PERFECT FIX.
WE'RE IN COMPLETELY UNCHARTED
WATERS WITH A FORMER PRESIDENT
WHO CLEARLY COMMITTED ALL SORTS
OF MISCONDUCT, PROBABLY CRIMES,
WHILE HE WAS IN OFFICE.
BUT WHEN I TEACH DEMOCRATIC
INSTITUTIONS TO MY LAW STUDENTS,
I TRY TO ASK THEM TO THINK ABOUT
A GAME THAT YOU PLAY WITH
MULTIPLE HANDS, A GAME LIKE
BRIDGE OR HEARTS WHERE YOU'RE
NOT JUST PLAYING ONE GAME, BUT
YOU'RE REALLY PLAYING A SERIES
OF LITTLE GAMES.
AND IF YOU'RE SO INTENT ON
WINNING ONE HAND OF HEARTS OR
SPADES OR BRIDGE, THAT YOU'RE
WILLING TO VIOLATE ALL OF THE
RULES AND BLOW UP THE GAME,
WELL, THERE'S NO GAME LEFT TO
PLAY AT THE END OF THAT.
AND THAT'S WHERE WE ARE RIGHT
NOW.
YES, PEOPLE WANT TO SEE THE
FORMER PRESIDENT HELD
ACCOUNTABLE.
BUT WE HAVE TO DO IT IN A WAY
THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH OUR
RULES, WITH OUR RULE OF LAW, OR
WE REALLY RUN THE RISK OF
DAMAGING THIS DEMOCRACY, WHICH
WAS SO SEVERELY STRAINED BY THE
FORMER PRESIDENT BEYOND REPAIR.
WE HAVE TO LET, ALTHOUGH IT
SEEMS SLOW AND PONDEROUS,
MERRICK GARLAND, USE THE RULE OF
LAW TO HOLD THE FORMER PRESIDENT
ACCOUNTABLE.
>> I NEED TO BRUSH UP ON MY
UNDERSTANDING OF CARDS AS MUCH
AS MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW.
BETSY, HE HAS BEEN CRITICIZED
FOR CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS.
WHAT KIND OF TIME LINE CAN WE
EXPE IF THE HOUSE VOTES TO
REFER DAN SCAVINO AND PETER
NAVARRO?
>> PROBABLY A SIMILAR TIME LINE.
IT WOULD OFTEN TAKE THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT AT LEAST SIX MONTHS
TO PROCESS WHETHER OR NOT THEY
WANTED TO CHARGE SOMEONE FOR
BREAKING THE LAW BY EITHER LYING
TO CONGRESS OR DEFYING A
CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA.
DOJ JUST MOVES SLOWLY.
THE BANNON CASE IS ALMOST
CERTAINLY THE EXCEPTION THAT PROVES THE RULE.
PROVES THE RULE.
WE SHOULD NOT EXPECT LICKETY
SPLIT DECISIONS.
THERE'S BEEN A DEVELOPMENT IN
THE LAST FEW DAYS, NEWS THAT'S
EMERGED THAT I THINK IS THE MOST
IMPORTANT NEWS IN WEEKS, AND
THAT IS THAT A FEDERAL GRAND
JURY HAS EXPANDED ITS
INVESTIGATION TO LOOK INTO NOT
JUST THE PEOPLE WHO PUNCHED
POLICE OFFICERS AND BROKE
WINDOWS AT THE CAPITOL BUILDING
BUT ALSO TO LOOK AT THE PEOPLE
WHO HELPED ORGANIZE THE RALLY ON
THE ELLIPSE PRIOR TO THE ATTACK
ON THE CAPITOL BUILDING, AND AT
THE PEOPLE WHO PARTICIPATED IN
THE PRESIDENT'S ALTERNATE
ELECTOR SCHEME.
WE DON'T KNOW WHICH EXACT PEOPLE
THEY'VE CALLED IN AS WITNESSES
TO THE GRAND JURY, BUT THIS IS
JUST A REALLY, REALLY BIG
DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE, WHAT IT
SHOWS US IS THAT JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT PROSECUTORS, THE DOJ
PROSECUTORS LOOKING AT JANUARY
6th, THE TOPICS THAT THEY'RE
LOOKING AT, THE ISSUE AREAS THAT
THEY'RE LOOKING AT HAVE A LOT
MORE OVERLAP WITH WHAT THE
SELECT COMMITTEE IS LOOKING AT
THAN WE KNEW ABOUT A WEEK AGO.
THERE'S MORE GOING ON AT THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAN WE'RE
AWARE OF.
WE LEARNED THAT JUST IN THE LAST
SEVERAL DAYS.
AND WHILE, OF COURSE, MANY
PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO "THE
TIMES," REPORTING THE PRESIDENT
HIMSELF ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THE
PACE AT DOJ, THERE IS OFTEN LOTS
OF STUFF GOING ON UNDER THE
SURFACE, AND PEOPLE CAN BE
SURPRISED ON A SHORT TIME LINE.
>> I'M GOING TO REMIND OUR
AUDIENCE, THOUGH THEY DO NOT
NEED THE REMINDER, TWO SEPARATE
TRACKS.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE 1/6
COMMITTEE BECAUSE YOU HAVE JAMIE
RASKIN SAYING THEY STILL DON'T
KNOW WHAT HAPPENED DURING THOSE
MISSING HOURS IN TRUMP'S
CALLOUT.
>> SOME THINGS WE'VE BEEN ABLE
TO PIECE TOGETHER FROM OTHER
PEOPLE'S INTERVIEWS AND
DEPOSITIONS THAT WE KNOW TOOK
PLACE DURING THAT TIME.
WE ARE AWARE OF OTHER PHONE
CALLS THAT TOOK PLACE DURING
THAT TIME THAT INCLUDED THE
PRESIDENT.
BUT WE HAVE NO COMPREHENSIVE
FINE-GRAIN PORTRAIT OF WHAT WENT
ON DURING THAT PERIOD.
AND THAT'S OBVIOUSLY OF INTENSE
INTEREST TO US.
>> SO JUST TALK US THROUGH THAT,
BETSY.
WHY HAVEN'T THEY BEEN ABLE TO
FILL IN THAT GAP AS
COMPREHENSIVELY AS RASKIN MIGHT
WANT?
>> MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE
IN THE ROOM WITH TRUMP DURING
THAT SEVEN-HOUR WINDOW, HAVE NOT
ANSWERED QUESTIONS IN PERSON YET
FROM THE JANUARY 6th SELECT
COMMITTEE.
ONE OTHER PERSON WHO HAS THAT
GRANULAR-LEVEL KNOWLEDGE THAT
THE COMMITTEE WANTS SO BADLY IS
IVANKA TRUMP.
HER HUSBAND JARED KUSHNER DID
SPEAK TO THE COMMITTEE
VOLUNTARILY LAST WEEK.
THAT'S ALSO A HUGE CHANGE.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MIGHT
SIGNAL ABOUT IVANKA'S OPENNESS
TO COOPERATION, BUT IT'S SURE
NOT A BAD SIGN.
THE COMMITTEE ALSO DOESN'T KNOW
WHAT TELEPHONES TRUMP WAS
TALKING ON WHEN HE HAD
CONVERSATIONS IN THAT SEVEN-HOUR
WINDOW THAT WEREN'T LOGGED ON
THE OFFICIAL LOG.
THERE'S BEEN SOME REPORTING
ABOUT SOME PARTICULAR PHONE
CALLS, BUT THERE'S NO WAY OF
SAYING, OH, WE KNOW HE WAS ON
THIS NUMBER, THAT NUMBER, OR THE
OTHER NUMBER SO WE CAN JUST
SUBPOENA THE PHONE RECORDS
ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE NUMBERS.
THEY'RE GETTING PERILOUSLY CLOSE
TO HERDING CAT TERRITORY, TO THE
PLACE WHERE DOCUMENTS ARE OF
LIMITED USE AND WHERE THEY'RE AT
RIGHT NOW IS REALLY NEEDING
WITNESSES WHO WERE IN THE ROOM
WITH THE PRESIDENT LISTENING TO