-Welcome back to the show. -Hey, man.
Thanks for having me back.
-First things first. -What's that?
-Happy birthday. -Oh. This week is my birthday.
-Happy birthday. -(applause and cheering)
So-so, but everybody has a birthday every year,
so just to specify, this is my sixtieth.
-60? -Yeah. Yeah. -(applause and cheering)
I-I'm the same age as NASA.
(laughter)
-We were born the same week in 1958. -Right.
And how are you both doing?
(laughter)
-We-we have our ups and downs. -Right, right, right. Right.
We're trying to keep 'em mostly up.
-Things are looking up. Uh... -Yeah.
We-we got Neil a little cake from the show, and, uh,
I was like, "We should make it like a planet-type thing."
And then we're like, "Well, the planet doesn't, like, balance."
-So we got you, like, half a planet. -Yeah.
Then we're like, "Is it a planet?
Is he gonna judge us for it?" It was so much stress.
It's-it's a pro... It's a planet somewhere in the universe.
-Right. -Not one of ours, right.
Yeah. Well, like, can I ask you a question? Do, like...?
-What? -Are people intimidated by you,
because, like, they don't want to say the wrong...?
Like, for instance, I-I'm just hanging out with Neil.
I always ask him a random question
about what's plaguing me
about what's happening in the universe.
And now, I was like, "Hey, man, what's going on with Pluto?"
'Cause I read a thing where they said, like,
Pluto might be a planet again,
and then you're like, "No, it's not a planet again."
-What's going on with Pluto? -Just-just get over it.
It's-it's had...
Get over it which way?
(laughter)
So it's a planet, it's not a planet?
-Which way should I get over it? -No, no. I think there's
a push right now to try to get it back,
-but it's gonna be really hard. -A push from whom?
We... There are people. There are planet...
There are Pluto... plan... Pluto lovers out there
that have not... not given up.
You're telling me there's, like, a Pluto lobby out there
-that really, like...? -Yeah, and they're all...
and they're all mostly American,
'cause in 1930, when Pluto, the cosmic object was discovered...
-Right. -...Disney first drew Pluto the dog.
So, Plu... Yeah, the dog and-and the former planet
have the same sort of tenure in our hearts and minds.
The... Did you just say "the former planet"?
(laughter)
What? Like, man, this world.
You know what? I... What I've always enjoyed
about your work, um, and, you know,
I mean, a testament to that work is how
your book is still on the
-Oh, crazy. My other book? -Yes, your other book.
-Yes, it's still on. -Right.
And this showed up next to it
-on, like... -Right, right, right. Because...
-(applause and cheering) -No. We... Wait... Hey.
Yeah, because you-you make... you make...
Let me just say. Let me just say.
We cheer any science book
that lands anywhere near the bestseller list.
And so... 'Cause there's always the political books that...
-Right, right, right. -...that tide waters bring in and out.
And an athlete book and a celebrity book.
And if a science book shows, everybody's like: Whoa,
maybe finally someone will be talking science
-at the water cooler. -Right.
And so, so my first one is still... in its 73rd week.
-It's-it's ridiculous. -And this one,
-and so it's two books. -(cheering, applause)
-Two science books. Yeah. -And I say it's because you
make it so accessible-- you try and tie astrophysics
to what's happening in the world.
-I mean, this book... -Wait, wait, I could do that,
but someone still has to be interested in it.
-And for me, it's a sign... -No, no, no, no.
-it's a sign... -It's the other way around.
I think it's the other way around.
I think you make us interested in the... because you go...
Interest, I think, is created. We're interested in everything.
-That's very sweet of you. -Yeah, people are
always interested in interesting things.
-But you have to make it interesting. -(cheering)
And that's what you've done with this book for me.
Right? This book is a really interesting book.
Because you talk about the relationship
between astrophysics and the military...
-Going way back. -Right, going, like...
-but, like, way, way back. -Hundreds, thousands, yeah.
So, people have always been using...
like, the military has always been using astrophysics
-to move forward. -Well, before the...
late 19th century, just the term "astronomer" was it.
-Right. -Later on, we started doing spectroscopy
and much more physics came a part of it.
-Uh-huh. -So we use the word "astrophysics."
But basically, people who understood the universe
were handmaidens to military conquerors from the beginning.
-Right. -And part of it is,
you want to know-- especially the seafaring nations--
you want to know where the people are
who you want to conquer.
How do you know where you are on Earth?
You got to go to the astronomers,
'cause we know what the sky looks like
-from all different parts of the Earth, -Uh-huh.
and you take that information
and infer where you are on Earth from it.
-Right. -And when you do that, you control the seas,
you control the undiscovered lands,
you control the lands that people are living in
that you are more powerful than.
When you finally land on the...
-Like, Columbus did this. -Right.
Columbus, he... he, on his fourth voyage,
he-he... he landed on Hispaniola,
does what he does, he tries to get back to Spain.
He doesn't have enough supplies.
He goes to the natives and say, "Give me some of your supplies."
They said, "No, we just have enough for ourselves
-to get through to the next harvest," -Right.
and he knew that a total lunar eclipse was coming up
a week later, and he said,
"If you do not give me your supplies, I will...
"my God will make the moon go away.
I'll make it disappear from the sky."
And they freaked out. But some of them were skeptical.
A week goes by, the moon starts disappearing.
They rapidly got their supplies, gave it to him.
He stayed... he stayed in his cabin
till halfway through the eclipse.
He then comes out and says, "My God is merciful to you
"for-for giving me supplies.
We will now have the moon returned."
-(laughter) -And halfway in the eclipse,
the moon comes out the other side of Earth's shadow.
So he exploit... he used knowledge of the universe
-Right. -to exploit people not as knowledgeable
-or as powerful as he was. -That is a hilarious story,
but I feel like we're skipping over the part
-where these people died. -(laughter)
'Cause they don't have food now.
Right, right, right. There's nothing written about
But Columbus successfully gets back... back to Spain.
That is a wild... I feel like you could still use
those techniques today, because a lot of people
don't think like that-- like, I feel like I could use that
with, like, my taxi driver in New York.
And I'd just be like, "I'm not gonna pay." And he'd be like,
"You have to pay." And I'll be like,
"My God will remove the moon!"
I feel like it could still work today.
Yeah, it could for some, it could for-- It ain't work--
-Who follows the moon right now? -It ain't working on me,
-but it-it could work. -Well, you're not my taxi driver, Neil.
I mean, if you were my taxi driver, it'd be like, "Neil,
what happened to the best seller? What's going on, Neil?"
No, but the thing is, think about it.
If you have knowledge of natural phenomenon,
and of the universe, and you have nefarious motives,
you can exploit anybody who does not.
And so for me, science literacy
is so important in modern civilization.
So it is inoculation against people
who would otherwise exploit your ignorance
of the phenomenon of the world.
We've come a long way from the days of Columbus,
and we're looking at the modern day military today,
who are still in a relationship
-with astrophysicists. -Yes, we are.
So, you know, Donald Trump has promised us
one of the greatest promises a president ever has,
and that is the development of the Space Force.
-Space Force. Space Force. -Space Force.
-And the... -(laughs)
-The idea... -Here, calm down.
-(grunts) It's okay. -You cannot calm down
-It's okay. -when you're talking about Space Force.
You cannot calm down when you're talking about Space Force.
-Plus, the way he talked about it. -Right.
It was like, very-- It was, it was bicep flexing.
Now, I want to know from you as an astrophysicist,
how feasible is a Space Force?
Like, can you fight wars in space?
Fighting wars against other countries
when the aliens come-- where would you say
we wage the war against the aliens?
Just looking at the planet and how things work?
Yeah. Aliens, I think, just give up all hope.
If the aliens come across the galaxy in a ship,
and we haven't left... (stammers)
-We haven't been past the moon since 1972. -Oh.
They are smarter and more powerful
-and have better machinery than us. -Right.
And every example of when that happened in our own species,
the one who had less tech-- who was less technologically able,
ended up-- it was bad for them. (laughs)
They were enslaved, they were put on reservations,
they-- So, in fact, all the movies
that portray aliens treating us that way,
I think it's-- not from act-- It's not from knowledge
that we ha-- We won't have any knowledge of the aliens,
it's how we know we've treated each other.
It is a mirror to our culture and our civilization,
how aliens are portrayed in all of these sci-fi movies.
So, anyway, Space Force, yeah,
it would be nice if it could swat aliens out of the sky,
that's not what the goal.
The-the-- So the goal-- So the Air Force has a branch
of itself called the U.S., um, the U.S. Space Command.
So there's already military activity in space.
It was just sort of an accounting shift--
it shifted all out, got its own branch.
And if you're gonna do that, I'd throw in...
asteroid defense, why not?
Throw in-- Why don't you clean up the debris,
-the space debris, okay? -Right.
Now, you're thinking there's, like...
-'Cause there's the junk in space. -There's junk in space
that would be bad for our space assets.
What's a military to do?
You want them to protect your borders, of course.
-Right. -And the normal things a military would do.
But how about your assets?
There's assets in space that are worth far beyond
-the value of the hardware itself. -Right.
There's-there's satellites that enable business on the ground.
-So the GPS satellite, for example. -Uh-huh.
They were put up by the military,
and we figured out how to tap into it.
We-- I mean, people-- figured out how to tap into it
and use it for conducting business.
The entire business model of Uber
runs off of GPS satellites.
(laughs): Tinder runs off of GPS satellites, okay?
You-you want a mate in the next 48 hours
and get a coordinate system for that?
(laughs): That's... This is how that works.
So, now, what-what I'm enjoying...
And-and, wait, so, in the old days...
(both laugh)
-What I'm enjoying... what I'm enjoying right now... -What?
What I'm enjoying right now
is that... is this relationship.
So, you had a natural physicist like yourself who was like,
"I think I've just figured out a way
"to use space to launch a satellite
that can tell us exactly where we are on the Earth."
And the military was like, "We can use this to conquer people."
And someone was like, "Oh, now I know how to smash."
-That was basically... -(laughs)
-Is that evolution, or is that the opposite? -I...
-What is that? -I don't know what that shows.
-The creat... The boundless creativity of people -Right.
when confronted with a new means of conducting business.
So, is it important for astrophysics
to be part of the military?
Is this something that is a luxury,
or do you genuinely think
that this will determine the future of the world?
Here's what happened. We make discoveries,
and the military looks over the picket fence.
-Says, "Hey, we want some of that." -Right.
And then they do things of much higher budget
that we couldn't otherwise afford.
It emerges out, and it gets declassified.
Say, "Hey, we want some of that."
Project Keyhole was an idea
-to put telescopes in orbit that look down. -Right.
With masterminded telescopes, beautiful telescopes.
We said, "Hey," after that got declassified.
"We want one of those."
Became the Hubble Space Telescope.
-Looking up. -Right.
This is why we-we...
we care about the same things the military cares about.
Are you ever worried, though, that the military would use
one of your discoveries as an astrophysicist
to do something really horrible on Earth?
They might do that, but I have no control over that.
And so what this book does,
it-it is a discussion.
It's-it's an exploration of all the ways
we have each crossed each other's street.
Either blindly, say, "Oh, give me that.
"I don't care what you did with it or how many...
I want that 'cause it'll help me learn about the universe."
-Right. -And vice versa. I don't judge it.
I just... I-I present it, and I observe it.
Because not all wars are bad.
I used to think war was bad 'cause I grew up during Vietnam.
But the Second World War? You're not gonna sit idly by
-and just let Hitler run ramshackle over Europe. -Right.
You're gonna say, "Let's rise up."
War memorials have soldiers standing proudly,
astride a steed, brandishing weapons.
And-and I looked at that, and I said,
-"Why are they doing this? 'Cause war's bad." -Right.
But then I realized no, not all conflict is bad.
Sometimes you have to stand up
and fight enemies of civilization.
And so we have been a handmaiden
to that enterprise ever since the beginning.
And this is why they're best sellers.
You make it interesting. Thank you so much
-for being on the show, my friend. -Oh, yeah.
Accessory to War
Neil deGrasse Tyson, everybody.