on the phone is victor ostrowski easing xmas side case officer former member of
the israeli defense force lieutenant commander of the israeli navy and has
plenty of counterterrorism
and military experience also the founder of the book patch dot com thank you for
being with us sir i'll thank you for having me so
there's so much to talk about it
and i'm not sure start number one can week whenever you can tell us about your
experience
as an aside case officer i would love to hear kind of what it's like day today
well uh...
basically it's a lot of hurry up and wait it's where you played that the
problem
uh... it
but but but but the sort is you know uh... is combination of
soldier
and uh... and uh... information gather in fact what you do it expecially in
uh... an agency like most side which is what you don't have it uh...
at the time i know you don't have embassies in enemy country to get a
c_i_a_
he when it was working again to the soviet union had an embassy in moscow
hand and other places access
um... we did not have access so we had to recruit
uh... are agents
in foreign countries which means if i needed to recruit assyrian
colonel
or something of that rank or hire from the three air force together information
about them
i had to do that in mind
and we were talking
is a double agent essentially right we will not be a double agent if there's a
lot of criminology that uh... you know gets mixed up chris holland agent
is a person that you recruit off the enemy
and houston
back to his country to gather information for you
this is the working for someone else organically he that you couldn't get
example all that say
uh... an iraqi
uh... scientist
who works for worked at the time for the iraqi nuclear program
uh... hw he was
trainning in uh... say clay in france
win where they bought their facility
uh... recruiting uh... most odd case officer would then make an approach
to uh... it's an operation that doesn't happen overnight takes time and
setting up you approach him
and
you get him to work for you so he gathers information
for israel
while he's still working as uh... iraqi scientist
um...
and uh... could that's an agent a double agent is when i recruited him to work
for me
he can iraqi
and i recruited him to work for israel in the rockies
find out about it
and they turned him back
right now you have a guy who's a double agent
who is really
uh...
feeding you false information you know every every once in awhile we hear about
the double agent that's been discovered in jail diversified that's been
uncovered uh...
you know i'm i'm a big fan of the spy novelist george smiley things
as a household name i don't know if you've read any of those absolutely so
every one of the is the reality vet
involved in espionage more like james bond
and or more like george smiley where it can be very boring leakey said a lot of
a lot of waiting around
out of the loneliness right i'm absolutely there is nobody blake le
carre
to describe the actual work in the field op today as the as a blocks
collapsed
so to speak and now you're talking more on the lower level which means you're
recruiting
terrorists
oh academic it's kind of a combination
between smiley
and uh... born identities sir such somewhere in the middle it by no means a
james bond i mean he would not last today and the real and here's a guy who
approaches somebody in the first thing he said you give him his real name right
on james bond and is there in the real world of espionage it's not as
as for james bond right
the women that are using now i'm talking about politically twcable side which is
israel's intelligence serbia but it was difficult to have women as priests
officers because we were recruiting
from the arab world landmarks james bond is a leading
and and and that's not the reality for the majority of the again uh... no got
uh... you know this is the some kind of a
uh... announced sentences to put it up there
uh... itni lucky don't forget you are
are government employees yeah
uh... better speech sent on the and you know very uh...
dangerous missions and and that's what you do
but you're not uh...
that'd there is no reason for you to be this lady's man to rise here not
unique angle around saying i'm bob right
my father was these
israel and he described in detail the procedures used at the tel aviv airport
and overall you tell me if he's wrong or if i'm wrong in my hand
ending the big difference with security there versed in the u_s_
in the u_s_ g_s_a_ agents rarely look even the eye and they're focused on your
luggage where isn't israel the focus seems to be
on the person
instead of on their luggage is that over correct this
colombo
you you have to understand that in israel deeply you know that the amount
of traffic you're talking about is very minimal to relative to everything else
you have one major airline
and one major airport
uh... which is
as a major as it is it's not as big as newark
are so
if this is it's easier
to to do that you have 'em a larger procedure for example
uh... allot of times if you want to yourself time you will provided some are
requested to provide your luggage at their head
so you can drop your luggage off
and it goes through pressurized rooms where you know it
the job
imitates the uh... the altitude of an airplane going up and down in exeter uk
that so the luggage is security
uh... and you have more time he requested to show up for hours before
the flight for uh...
the this is not helping and and personable and you have a lot stations
uh... and other countries they're separated in airport in a small area
and they are guarded by people
that are
uh... from the israeli security services parso
it's a whole system betty way different than what the u_s_ is that it's more
it's more targeted to don't forget the in these really are far more targeted
as as the
until now was anyway
circuit in the u_s_ is you cannot
compared it to
the major think to his
the
the american system realized very much on on contractors
he's really system does not
uh... these are government employees
and they're very highly regarded
uh... there from there from the internal security
uh... they get
training in weaponry
uh... they get training in in equipment
uh... interrogation uh... and they're not afraid to do what's called profiling
when you say profiling it's not racial profiling the is behavior profile
absolutely uh... ratio ito
racial or h but i hear a lot when people are saying lately
all you know the checked this little old lady would she before she will have
little lady can exploit sir
it bank like we unilateral
there was an expectation of a terrorist attack from palestinians at that time
and and the palestinians were smart enough
to recruit
the of the red army brigades
which word japanese
and a group of japanese
terrorist arrived in food or large airport which is the ben-gurion airport
now
and they carry out a massacre there cuz they were not expected
you know they weren't profile right absolutely so behavior seems to be much
more effective way to go
age race or
herb country of origin yesterday the other thing is i i i think you're
people are underestimating the that history um...
and and itty-bitty well when you hear about
a guy's on the phone
home so he let somebody to go the wrong way through newark airport security it
doesn't sound good writer what happens if israel to dimple have gone on
airplanes in israel with the weapons good are you know and tried the system
and made it and you know and and have gone through it
and there's always a failure somewhere but when you're comparing besides
look could take the example of this flight uh... you know the northwest
flight
in an excellent example of the of the quality of the kids sec
i mean the terrorist if they wanted to i mean if they had their druthers and her
choice
they would have taken an airplane or boarded a plane in the u_s_
uh... it's still full of fuel
uh... it's closer to the target which means if you want to blow it over
city you're taking off from a city
uh... on the other hand they chose to go to people airport
which is way out there
they complain that made had to cross the atlantic
before big made their attempt
to blow it up
now if you're comparing israelis and others will be cheapoair port
is really uh... that people who are handling the secure here or training
this security there at least for the company called i_t_t_ s
which is an israeli company
so you have it kind of put everything not you know i dickhead and missing
company has subdivision
handling about thirty airport in the u_s_
screening that is being talked about implementing in the u_s_ everything i've
read suggest that would be implemented at some airport so my question is is is
that going to be effective wouldn't terrorists
just figure out which one those are and fly to other airports yet
so it's probably so you're saying is unless to put it in every single airport
it's not going to have any effect no i haven't had better get hassidic seconded
back picture showing bitter making ever-expanding in the technological way
uh... i think though that basics screaming
of of of
dada
it would be so efficient i mean
we're going overboard into color expecting
uh... the the mic mechanisms and could pick a knology to solve our problem
uh... it's missing thing by the way in the spy world um...
the
this c_i_a_ relied very highly on
on an electronics
and and devices and very little argument
um...
which is you know that the recording all the somebody
and and you cannot
rely on information
more than that
but from a person's math i mean
he was there when somebody's set something and he brought to the
information ob gates it's it more expensive to get it harder
setup
but that's the kind of information you need mind last question for you and i
wish we had more time to talk is red flags and the underwear bomber i have a
long list here that come up to me which is you paid cash for a one-way ticket
he brought no luggage to travel halfway around the world he had no passport he
claimed to be from sudan when he was nigerian and his own father had called
the
say about him now
this is the result of no talking between a
sees that he was able to see go from country to country where is the problem
somewhere else and with so many red flags absolutely somewhere else but i'll
tell you where
uh... the airport security
cheapo
should have gone on to this
hoon uh... bet that ticket and not only that he was to eat it based on his age
hicks ticket was far more expensive then should a bit
uh... you know and and all those
reply should have been raised
by the security elements in the airport
so it was there was a failure in in a lot of locations in the last days i mean
his origin he was allowed to get under the guise
eyes of being from a different country with no passport that's a problem that's
a problem that you have problems everyday
step of the way
the fact that he was on the list should raise us a lot of flags because
that means that we're only protecting against people who are analysts are not
a list and said he was on that list for a while sitting out there you go below
the list isn't the end of the world run no any shouldn't be relying just on that
it's a it's a tool it's a lot more to learn that in this
system but i think that this size of the u_s_ in this size of the
of the whole system
it's best protection um...
because you know what we're talking
we're were very scared
quite panicky about it but in the big picture
if not pat pat
victor ostrowski xmas side case officer former member of the israeli defense
force ends founder and c_e_o_
of the book patch dot com thanks so much for calling
thank you for for having me ok take care
fascinating stuff listening really hands-on
knowledge yet on exactly where things broke down
the work vivid stories
could tell
if they weren't secrets i'm sure would with phil pages and pages books i can
imagine reminds me a little bit uh... to steer for talk you know
about my have my trip to israel right now and i was questioned revolutionize
the
insulation where
is jewish and he was on a birthright
but his father's from iran
probably didn't help right i mean we know from out of weaver had any of the
time okay
and he is there a lot of questions asked yes i was questioned for about twice as
long as there's anybody else will come lessons
old basic questions but then uh... the question to repeated to make sure i was
telling the truth
questions about if you had a bar mitzvah
where i was from
which one of your parents
jewish within our or where i was coming from
you know which airport i uh... i flew in from
uh... you know stuff like that and it went on for fifteen twenty minutes
uh... five to ten minutes but all the other
interviews were very shortly with the people on the trip a couple of minutes
wanted two minutes