- I love making people feel uncomfortable.
Like if you gon' make me feel uncomfortable,
I'm coming for you. - See, that's--
- So if you have me in your chair and they're talking
about girls, I'd be like, "Nah, but I'm talking to a guy.
Do you wanna hear about that?"
Cut my (beeps) hair.
(mellow R&B music) (clippers buzzing)
- Sometimes, people with different, you know,
sexual orientation get treated differently.
And especially in the barbershop.
Do you feel like your experience in the barbershop
has been where people treat you differently?
- When I was younger, I definitely felt a lot
of apprehension and anxiety about going to the barbershop.
I'mma put it like this.
When you're young, 'cause I was getting my hair cut
when I'm three, four, five, right?
So I'm not having big conversations
about gayness with myself. - Right.
- Right, but what I did notice is that the men,
they didn't seem like real people to me.
What I understood to be true was
that they were overcompensating, it seemed extra.
Like the barbershop was like an extra place.
Like everybody was mad loud.
Everybody was cursing really loudly
and talking about women in a way,
which I never really heard people talk about women.
- That might have been a bad shop that you was at.
- It was all of the shops, yo. - 'Cause--
- I grew up in east New York, it was all of the shops.
All of them were like that.
- I don't know, man, 'cause I grew up in barbershops
that was more, I don't even wanna say corporate,
but there wasn't a whole lot of yelling.
If they did, if somebody started getting too loud,
it was like, "Yo man, keep it down, man, you know."
Moving to New York city from Portland,
lots more gay clients.
Once the barber/client relationship is established,
it's kinda like if they paying money,
I don't care what they do when they leave, you know?
- That's the way it should be.
When I was in this space and I'm fully aware of my gayness,
and I went into a barbershop, I actually used to go
to a barbershop, really close to here on St. Nick.
If I'm not mistaken, this is the barbershop.
The level of homophobia in that barbershop was crazy.
I remember there was a dude he cut here right
on that side, over there. - Mm-hmm.
- I know that that barber was gay,
but he was trying to overcompensate so hard
that he was the loudest homophobic one,
which is what probably was also a dead giveaway
that he was gay. - Yeah.
- But I remembered everybody would love
to partake in those conversations, right?
Like they love to get in the conversation and talk more
about people who already are so alienated
and who already have such a really,
really rough time navigating anyway.
And I realized that at a young age,
I was like Black men and this, what I'm experiencing,
right now, is everybody's performing.
It didn't feel like there was anything
really genuine happening because that guy was lying.
You know what I'm saying?
- See and that's another thing.
That right there, you go to one, have one experience,
and that's that shop. - Yeah.
- That's that shop 'cause when you come into a shop
and like my shop, for instance, we got a bunch of grown men
in there that we've all lived in different places
around the world, met different types of people.
So it's not like, "Aw man, this dude is gay."
It's like, "Did you wanna get a haircut today?"
That's it.
- So if you having a question and the dude started talking
about how he likes (beeps) or how he's talking to this dude,
as loudly as everybody else's talking about (beeps)
and all of this stuff, how you think everybody will respond?
- (stammers) You can't do that in my chair.
When we talk, getting loud and stuff,
we getting loud about some sports.
Dudes ain't standing up, getting loud,
talking about some chick they knocked off.
But I talked to 'em, but most of 'em,
they know I don't wanna hear about that, like I'm a dude.
- Yeah, so are the dudes who-- - Nah, but like--
- They dudes, too. - But like,
but I have never really had one of my gay clients,
maybe they said they got a date or maybe they came
with their date and they both getting a cut,
but they never tried to get into detail with me like that
because they know that that's not my personal thing.
And I'm not gon' talk to this gay dude about what I did
with this girl 'cause I know he ain't really probably trying
to hear that.
- A lot of shops, I'm telling you--
- Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure. - Are like that,
and my thing is I love making people feel uncomfortable.
Like if you gon' make me feel uncomfortable,
I'm comin' for you.
- See, that's--
- So if you have me in your chair, which has happened,
and they talkin' about girls, I'd be like,
"Nah, but I'm talking to a guy.
Do you wanna hear about that?"
Cut my (beeps) hair.
The world defaults to heterosexuality.
So the barbershop is gonna default to heterosexuality.
- It's the only place where Black dudes can come together
and talk about anything. - Yeah.
- If it's sexuality, religion, politics,
without any interference from some human resource,
some white people telling them you can or can't say that.
This conversation right here, it happened in a barbershop
before it made everybody be a little bit more like,
"Man, I mean really, like do it really matter?
Like we getting haircuts here."
- The barbershop is actually a place
that can be used for transformative (beeps).
- Mm-hmm. - Especially when we talk
about the relations between gay men and straight Black men,
in particular. - Yeah.
- Because I don't think what people understand is,
is that if you are a gay man and a straight man,
and being able to talk to each other,
it's a powerful situation.
Like being able to say, "This is my experience.
This is yours." - Yeah.
- In my experience, a lot of Black,
straight men have a hard time navigating certain spaces.
The way that people view Black men and then also,
it could be the other way around.
Like as a Black man, do I feel safe here?
Can I express myself here?
I wanna say this, but I don't know if I can.
They may think that I'm too this
or too that, right? - Yeah, yeah.
- Oftentimes, even when it comes to women,
a lot of guys will say to me, "Oh yo, is that girl single?"
I'm like, "So you tryna use me, the gay dude,
as an avenue to talk to this woman," right?
But you don't talk to me when it's time
to actually consider, "Well, why do I like this girl?
What kind of woman am I gonna choose, in general?"
You know what I'm saying? - Man, (stammers).
- I think we have a lot of--
- You can't expect heterosexual men
to think that dynamically.
Men is the same dudes that just go watch games of people,
just trying to hurt each other in sports or that.
Like you can't make the barbershop the beauty salon.
It's like a man-cave, the barbershop.
I know it's just a place of business,
but it's the last place.
Women, they talkin' too, they got a voice now.
- But we ain't talkin' 'bout women,
we're talking about a gay dude.
We're talking 'bout gay dudes.
And when we talk about this village, right?
We talk about Black people in the village,
and we talk about how we work as a community,
gay people important to the community.
We're very important because we understand
and we fill in gaps that you will never understand.
Women are important because they fill in gaps
that you will never understand.
And straight men are important
because they fill in gaps, but straight men
have a disposition of not wanting to listen.
If we're having a conversation and I'm letting you know,
as a gay man, what my experience is
and you're letting me know, then there's room to learn.
If a woman is telling you stuff, there's room to learn.
And it goes that way, so we have to figure out,
when I talk about the barbershop.
Yeah, it may lead heterosexual,
but we still gotta talk about politics.
- Oh yeah, we still do. - We still have
to talk about stocks, we still have
to talk about upward mobility.
We still have to talk about the generational wealth gap.
- I never thought that if it was a gay dude there,
that I was making him feel away by talking
about me and a lady, I never thought about that.
So that's one thing that where it's the disconnect.
We didn't even think of that, we thinking
that the barbershop is the one place
where we can say whatever we wanna say, no human resources.
I guess you do kinda gotta be a little bit more aware
of your surroundings nowadays,
and everybody gotta be a little more open-minded
to listening to the other person's perspective.