- I'm here with the director
of "The Disciple", Chaitanya Tamhane.
Chaitanya welcome.
Thanks so much for being here and thank you for the film.
- It's a pleasure for me.
Thank you so much for having me.
- It is an absolutely beautiful film,
certainly one of the strongest I've seen in a long time.
You know it's tempting I think for Westerners
perhaps to call this your version of "Whiplash",
but I think the form of your film
also follows a different kind of music
than the jazz in Damien Chazelle's movie.
And for those who don't know Khayal music,
that your disciple is learning.
Can you talk a little bit about
just the form of music that you're exploring in the film?
- Yeah.
It's a tradition that's at least
seven or eight centuries old.
You know, Khayal is a form of Indian classical music.
There are people who believe it goes back
to like 5,000 years old, being 5,000 years old.
And it's a very, very complex art form
because it's got a very strict framework in terms of rules,
but the foundation of it is improvisation.
Khayal translates literally to a state of mind.
And it is said that an artist is in a performance,
in that given moment,
expressing their state of mind through the music, you know?
So in a way it's like Western classical meets jazz.
- Right.
- You know, because the performer
is a singer-composer, you know?
- And the improvisation that is primarily by the singer,
by the soloist or by all of the members of the ensemble.
- Yeah, I mean the accompanists
kind of have to be present and adapt,
you know? - Ah, okay.
- To what, and respond rather.
It's a conversation between the musicians on stage.
- Okay. - You know?
- Kind of being brought into being as it's going.
It's not something that you're playing from.
- Exactly. - Yeah.
- Exactly, and once you start understanding
and appreciating the music,
you realize that it's kind of the original version
of rock and roll in a way,
it's kind of a suspense film.
It's kind of a thriller that's unfolding,
for the audience as to how a performer
is going to resolve that particular beat cycle.
- Right.
- Or how that, you know, how the performer
is going to land again on the resting note.
I mean, I must say I'm no authority
on Indian classical music,
but this is from what I understood
when I was studying the music.
- And how did you become interested
in Indian classical music
and deciding to make that the subject of your film?
- Right.
So the honest truth is that I don't know how
this bug kind of bit me. (Cameron laughs)
I know that I was,
you know, when I was younger,
I wasn't really a fan of the setting and the music,
because of certain things that I saw around,
you know, this world,
because I saw extreme reverence,
I saw submission,
you know to your guru or to your elders.
And, you know, as a young person,
I thought that, you know, I don't know,
it's too traditional for my taste.
It's too,
how do I say, I don't know how to say this,
but it's yeah, I don't know.
But then somehow I got very, very interested in the stories,
and the history and the anecdotes,
that surround this world.
And then I started understanding and separating the music
from the facets or the elements of this world
that I didn't really like.
And then I also started understanding the complexities,
and nuances about the facets that I, you know,
didn't appreciate earlier on.
But yeah, I don't know how it started,
but when the bug kind of bit me,
I started stalking musicians on social media.
I started attending concerts like a maniac,
or reading books on the subject,
watching documentaries.
And it's got such a rich history.
It's been documented so well, you know?
In our society and our culture,
that it was an endless ocean to dive into.
- You know, there's an element that I think for fans
of Western classical music might be a little bit different
when they watch "The Disciple",
because Sharad your disciple in the film,
he's not really praised for studying
this very complex ancient Indian art form.
It's kind of seen as a bad idea,
he doesn't get a lot of respect for doing it.
And where does this music
and where does it stand now in Indian society,
we see people following devotional music,
and pop music, filming music.
But the classical music seems to be
just thrown to the wayside.
- Right.
You know, this is something that I thought as well
when I started researching,
and when I just about started out attending concerts,
but then I realized that actually that's not the case.
It's a very dynamic thriving subculture in the country.
Yes it has a limited audience.
You know, it has a niche audience,
but it's always been the case.
It's not very different from arthouse cinema in that sense.
- Okay, interesting.
- Of course it's a much much younger media,
it's the same question you could ask
about arthouse films, you know?
But as we all know that it's not going to go anywhere,
and there are still patriots,
and there are still committed audiences for that medium.
It's the same with classical music that,
especially in a city like Mumbai,
you will find on a weekend,
at least seven to eight different concerts happening.
Of course they are not a part of the mainstream dialogue.
They're not a part of pop culture in that sense,
but you know,
the practitioners who want to pursue this music
and who want to perform are fully committed,
and they have an audience,
you know, there are music schools,
there are gurus,
there are enough students.
Of course, it's all changing with time,
and they're adapting,
to changing times,
but it's not, I would say a dying art form in that sense.
- That's good to hear.
As a maker of arthouse films
was this then kind of a personal story for you
in terms of, you know, a young man
who's trying to pursue a very complex,
but perhaps not as popular art form
as others might want him to.
You're surrounded in Mumbai
by the biggest film industry in the world,
but the so-called Bollywood movies are not
what you're interested in making.
- Mmh mmh, mmh mmh, well that (chuckles)
that's a very relevant question.
I must say that yes,
definitely the themes are very important to me,
and it is kind of a exploration of personal life,
but it is slightly different
when it comes to films as opposed to music.
I was born in 1987, okay?
When I was growing up,
films had a very different,
I would say, value,
mystery, and position in popular culture.
And I feel like I'm seeing a change now in front of my eyes
where social media,
and memes and video games,
and many, many other things are competing
for people's attention.
And what is part of, you know,
dialogue in the mainstream now.
So I would say that it's different in some ways,
but also very similar,
very, very similar as to what one would be struggling with.
If you are, you know,
trying to make certain kind of things,
or actually in that sense,
I think the film is very universal.
This could be the story of a ballerina.
It could be the story of an athlete.
It could be the story of a dancer, you know?
- You took part in one of the world's
most famous mentorship programs,
the Rolex Mentoring Protege Initiative,
and your mentor in that case was Alfonso Cuaron.
And he's an executive producer on this film,
and has been a great champion of it,
telling everyone just how wonderful he thinks the film is.
Can you talk a little bit about what that experience
of working with him as a protege was?
And then also just what he contributed to this film.
- Right.
This is a question I'm often asked,
as to how has,
you know, coming in contact with Alfonso,
or working with him or seeing him at work,
has changed me and impacted me as a filmmaker.
And the answer that I always have is
it's gonna take me probably 10 or 15 years,
to fully comprehend,
and realize, you know,
what all I have learned from him
because it's an ongoing process.
Even now he is generous enough to call it a two-way process,
a two-way street where, you know?
And he feels, it's a dialogue
between two artists,
where one is relatively younger and upcoming,
and the other one's more experienced,
but I would definitely consider him as one of my mentors.
What, you know, watching him work did for me,
was it expanded my vocabulary of filmmaking.
- How also?
- He's also constantly pushed me to be fearless,
to have a strong vision and to pursue it with conviction,
and to demand for the best, you know?
And those are values that I really, really appreciate.
And even in very, very tangible terms, you know?
He's the one who kind of insisted
that I edit this film myself,
you know, it was the first time I was editing a film
by myself and he was like,
"Yeah, who will know this better than you?"
He's the one who recommended the cinematographer
for the film.
You know, he gave me very, very valuable feedback
on the edit on the script.
One of my biggest challenges
when I was starting work on the script
was how do I communicate,
this very complex art form?
And how do I give a context for it
to a lay audience who knows nothing about this music.
And he liberated me by saying, don't even try, you know?
Don't do it.
Just tell your story.
- Right.
- And trust the audience's intuition.
- You don't explain the art form
or kind of ease the audience into it.
They're just there, where they're with the musicians.
And I think that actually is a real value in the film.
It feels like it's not condescending,
there are many people who will know this music very well,
but even if you don't, you can catch up,
you can learn what's going on.
- Yeah.
And I guess it's also, what he was trying to say
was to trust the intuition of the viewer.
- Yeah.
- And to grant them intelligence,
rather than to be expository and dumb things down in a way.
And you know, also coming back to Alfonso's support,
like you said,
he's been so kind and so generous,
in supporting this film,
in ensuring that it reaches the most number of people.
And you know,
that it has a smooth journey,
when it's put out in the world,
he's been an absolute pillar of support for us.
- I wanna talk about the visual style of the film.
You mentioned that you edited it.
And I think that's part of the, just the grace,
and the sense of just a breathing that the film has.
It's meditative in some senses, but it never feels slow.
There's a discipline in how you framed each image,
and how the images move from one to another.
And I wondered if you had a particular strategy
for how you wanted to approach the visual style,
and the rhythm of the film.
- Well, the thing is,
I feel like every story and every narrative
demands its own cinematic language,
and as an artist, for me,
it's also process of discovering that language.
You know, it would be kind of boring
and wrong for me to impose a certain style on a film,
or to go in with very set motions of how it should be.
So it was a constant process of finding that language
while shooting, while prepping and while editing.
It's true that I do have an affinity towards,
continuous stakes and, you know, wide shots,
and a certain kind of pacing.
But at the same time,
I think like compared to my first film,
the language has taken a new turn in "The Disciple".
And I think it's more dynamic
also because the texture of the film is,
I feel a lot more subjective,
a lot more emotional,
but yes I feel that the only strategy
was to kind of be sensitive and open,
to what the film itself demands,
and then to follow your intuition in finding that language.
- The last thing I wanna ask
is you mentioned your previous film "Court",
also widely celebrated,
and with "Court" and with "The Disciple",
you filmed not just portraits of individual characters,
but also of institutions in India, the justice system,
and in this case, Indian Classical Music.
I wonder if there's an attraction to exploring institutions,
and also where do you see your curiosity taking you next?
Might it be to another institution in India?
- Right.
Well, it is true that I am completely driven by curiosity,
because I get bored very easily, you know?
And I was raised in a very insular,
kind of a middle class set up.
Insular in a relative sense,
compared to how diverse and how dynamic Mumbai is,
and India is as a country,
which is not even a country,
it's like a continent,
and just the amount of disparity that exists in a society.
So I would say it was insular in that sense,
and more than institutions,
I am very, very fascinated by different subcultures,
different worlds, and different settings.
My approach is almost like that of a journalist.
And at the same time,
like a kid in a candy store,
who wants to engage with something totally new,
something totally alien.
And then to marry that external stimulus
with something deeply personal.
Because you realize that people and cultures,
at the core essence are pretty universal,
and pretty similar at the end of the day, you know?
So I don't know about institutions,
but yes, different subcultures
and different professions fascinate me.
And I'm very curious myself to know
whether that will be, you know,
something that I will pursue with my next film as well.
Or will it be something I'm more familiar with.
- Yeah.
Well we look forward to whatever comes next,
but for the meantime, we've got this really incredible film.
- Thank you. - It's incredible.
So thank you so much Chaitanya for making it,
for bringing it our way to the Toronto Film Festival.
And I wish you could be here in person
to see an audience reaction,
but I'm glad that we're able to present it to our audience.
- It's a total pleasure and a total honor,
to be able to present the film to TIFF audiences,
and Cameron, thank you so much for all your kind words,
and for having me.
- Of course, our pleasure.
Thank you.