>>> GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT,
GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT, GET
OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT,
GET OUT.
>> WOW.
>> RECENT EVENTS ON COLLEGE
CAMPUSES ARE PROMPTING QUESTIONS
ABOUT FREE SPEECH.
THIS SCENE HAPPENED EARLIER THIS
MONTH AT UC HASTINGS, WITH
PROGRESSIVE LAW STUDENTS
SHOUTING DOWN A SPEAKER DURING A
DEBATE.
A FEW WEEKS LATER, ANOTHER
INCIDENT BROKE OUT AT YALE LAW
SCHOOL WITH MORE THAN 100
STUDENTS ATTEMPTING TO SHOUT
DOWN A BIPARTISAN PANEL ON CIVIL
LIBERTIES.
JOINING US NOW, PROFESSOR AT
PRINCETON UNIVERSITY, EDDIE
GLAUDE JR.
EDDIE, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU.
A NEW OP-ED IN THE "WASHINGTON
POST" IS ENTITLED FREE SPEECH
DOESN'T MEAN HECKLERS GET TO
SHUT DOWN CAMPUS DEBATE.
FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT
INCLUDE A RIGHT TO SHOUT DOUBT
OTHERS SO THEY CANNOT BE HEARD.
IT'S PROFOUNDLY DISTURBING THAT
STUDENTS ASSERT A RIGHT TO
DETERMINE WHAT MESSAGES ARE
ACCEPTABLE ON CAMPUS, AND TRY TO
DEPRIVE OTHERS WITHIN THE
COMMUNITY TO INVITE OR LISTEN TO
SPEAKERS OF THEIR CHOICE.
IF SUCH A HECKLER'S VETO THAT IS
ALLOWED, THE ONLY SPEECH THAT
OCCURS WILL BE THAT WHICH NO ONE
CARES ENOUGH TO SHUT DOWN.
>> SO, YEAH.
EDDIE, ERWIN WROTE THAT,
OBVIOUSLY DEAN AND BERKELEY LAW
SCHOOL AND A MAN GREATLY
RESPECTED IN THE LEGAL
COMMUNITY.
LET'S JUST START WITH WHAT HE'S
THE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT, AND
I'M SURE YOU SHARE THAT CONCERN.
AND THAT IS THE SO-CALLED
HECKLER'S VETO, WHERE SOMEBODY
GETS UP TO SPEAK, AND THEY'RE
SHOUTED DOWN, SO NO STUDENTS GET
TO HEAR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.
SHOULD THERE BE ANY PLACE
ACADEMIC SETTINGS FOR A
SO-CALLED HECKLER'S VETO?
>> LET ME JUST SAY THIS, JOE,
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GREAT TO SEE
BOTH YOU AND MIKA.
IT'S CERTAINLY THE CASE THAT WE
NEED TO CULTIVATE AN ENVIRONMENT
FOR FREE AND OPEN EXCHANGE AND
DEBATE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND
FOR THE MOST PART THAT HAPPENS,
IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE DAY IN
PLACES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
I AGREE WITH THE BASIC PREMISE
OF THE OP-ED, AND THE DEAN IS AN
ALLY.
HE'S BEEN ARGUING IN THIS
TERRAIN FOR DECADES.
I THINK THE FRAMING IS
PROBLEMATIC HERE.
I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS A
QUESTION, IF IT'S BEST THOUGHT
OF AS FREE SPEECH, JOE.
I THINK IT MIGHT BE THOUGHT OF
BETTER AS WHAT DO WE TAKE TO BE
ACTS OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE,
THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE STUDENTS
FEEL THAT PARTICULAR SPEAKERS ON
CAMPUS ARE OFFENSIVE, THEY
REPRESENT A THREAT TO THEIR OWN
STANDING AND DIGNITY IN THAT
SPACE, AND THEY MAKE CHOICES.
THEY MAKE CHOICES TO PROTEST AT
THAT MOMENT, AND I THINK IT'S
BETTER TO THINK ABOUT THIS AS AN
ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND
THE CONSEQUENCES THAT FOLLOW
FROM IT, THAN A QUESTION OF FREE
SPEECH.
>> CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE, THERE'S A
TIME AND A PLACE AND A MANNER
FOR CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE,
CERTAINLY YOU HAVE STUDENTS WHO
DON'T LIKE WHAT A SPEAKER SAYS,
AND THEY SHUT DOWN THE ENTIRE
DEBATE, AND YOU KNOW, YALE, YALE
FEDERALIST SOCIETY HELD A PANEL
THAT FEATURED PROGRESSIVE
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION,
AND SOMEBODY FROM THE ADF, A
CONSERVATIVE NONPROFIT, AND
BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED,
THEY SHOUTED DOWN BOTH THE
SPEAKERS, AND WE ALSO, OF
COURSE, HAD THE EXAMPLE, AT UC
HASTINGS COLLEGE OF LAW.
WE DON'T WANT OUR STUDENTS TO BE
SO FEARFUL OF OPPOSING OPINIONS
THAT THEY CAN'T HEAR THEM,
RIGHT.
>> DEBATE THE CONVERSATION.
>> OF COURSE.
>> IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY
SOMEBODY'S VIEWPOINT, LET THEM
SPEAK.
>> SO OF COURSE THAT'S
ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL TO HOW
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES WORK.
BUT JUST AS WE HAVE IN OUR
POLITICS, JOE, WE HAVE ON
UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES, AND WHAT IS
THAT, WE HAVE PEOPLE USING
LIBERAL MEANS FOR ILL LIBERAL
ENDS, SO PEOPLE WILL TAKE
ADVANTAGES OF THE BASIC NORMS
AND VALUES OF UNIVERSITIES AND
COLLEGES IN ORDER TO UNDERMINE
THOSE NORMS AND VALUES.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR PEOPLE TO
COME INTO COLLEGE SPACES AND
UNIVERSITY SPACES --
>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN, THOUGH?
WE HAVE SITUATIONS WHERE CONDI
RICE IS NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE
SPEECHES, COMMENCEMENT
ADDRESSES, CHRISTINE LAGARDE NOT
ALLOWED TO GIVE COMMENCEMENT
ADDRESSES, I CAN GO ON AND ON.
IT HAS GOTTEN RIDICULOUS.
GO AHEAD.
>> NO, JOE, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT
IN SOME INSTANCES, BUT AT EVERY
MOMENT THAT CONDOLEEZZA RICE WAS
PROTESTED IN TERMS OF HER
DELIVERING A COMMENCEMENT
ADDRESS, SHE GAVE ANOTHER ONE,
SO WE NEED TO BE VERY VERY
CAREFUL IN HOW WE'RE
GENERALIZING THESE MOMENTS TO
AMERICAN HIGHER ED BROADLY, AND
I'M VERY INTERESTED, SO THIS IS
WHAT I THINK JUST REALLY CLEARLY
THAT WHEN PEOPLE SPEAK, THEY
HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK, AND
PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO RESPOND,
AND YOU CAN'T DICTATE THE FORM
AND CONTENT OF THE RESPONSE.
SOMEBODY MAY DECIDE TO SLAP
SOMEBODY, RIGHT, BUT THERE ARE
CONSEQUENCE THAT IS FOLLOW FROM
THAT, AND THEY HAVE TO BE AWARE
OF THE CONSEQUENCES, THAT'S AN
ASSAULT.
SOME PEOPLE MAY DECIDE TO
PROTEST, IT MAY VERY WELL RESULT
IN THEIR EXPULSION.
THEY HAVE TO BEWARE OF THOSE
CONSEQUENCES.
BUT WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN MORE,
JOE, IS WHY IS THIS AT THE HEART
OF OUR CONCERN ABOUT FREE SPEECH
AND DEMOCRACY WHEN WE HAVE OVER
175 PIECES OF LEGISLATION
INTRODUCED TO TARGET TEACHERS
WHEN WE HAVE 13 PIECES OF
LEGISLATION PASSED IN ELEVEN
STATES THAT ARE DICTATING WHAT
TEACHERS CAN TEACH.
THAT SEEMS TO BE PUTTING PEOPLE
LEVERAGING STATE POWER TO DO
THIS.
YEAH, YOU DO, I KNOW.
>> I JUST WANT TO EMPHASIZE
THIS.
>> YOU JUST WANT TO CHANGE THE
SUBJECT, I LOVE YOU, MY BROTHER,
BUT YOU JUST WANT TO CHANGE THE
SUBJECT, BECAUSE ANYTIME WE TALK
ABOUT ANYTHING GOING ON IN
COLLEGE CAMPUS, YOU'RE LIKE
JAMES CARVILLE, LOOK AT THE BIRD
OVER THERE, I'M NOT GOING TO
LOOK AT THE BIRD OVER THERE.
THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR TOO
LONG, AND AGAIN, CIVIL
DISOBEDIENCE, WHAT GREAT RESPECT
I HAVE FOR STUDENTS ON EITHER
SIDE OF THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM
THAT HAVE THE COURAGE TO HAVE --
TO STEP OUT OF WHERE THEY FEEL
SAFE, AND COMMIT ACTS OF CIVIL
DISOBEDIENCE, THAT'S FINE.
BUT THEY HAVE TO BE PREPARED, BE
ASKED TO LEAVE THE ROOM, AND
THEY NEED TO BECAUSE, YES, YOU
SAID, WELL, CONDI RICE GETS TO
SPEAK IN OTHER PLACES.
WHAT IF I'M A RUTGERS STUDENT
AND I WANTED TO HEAR CONDI RICE
SPEAK AT MY EVENT BUT SHE WAS
CANCELED, NOT ALLOWED?
CHRISTINE LAGARDE.
WHAT IF I'M THAT STUDENT AND
DON'T GET A CHANCE TO HEAR THAT?
OR SAY A CONSERVATIVE, EVEN A
RIGHT-WING TRUMPIST WANTS TO
COME AND SPEAK ON THE CAMPUS,
WHO HAS VIEWS THAT MAY BE
OFFENSIVE TO YOU AND ME, BUT
THERE ARE STUDENTS ON THAT
CAMPUS THAT WANT TO HEAR IT.
AND LET ME JUST SAY AS A
CONSERVATIVE THAT GREW UP AROUND
LIBERALS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES
THAT DIDN'T LIKE TO HEAR
OPPOSING FACTORS, I TOLD MY
LIBERAL FRIENDS, YOU'RE ONLY
DEPRIVEING YOURSELF.
YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO WHAT OTHER
PEOPLE BELIEVE AND SHARPEN YOUR
ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEM.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
>> JOE, I THINK, OBVIOUSLY I
AGREE WITH THE IDEA THAT
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES SHOULD
BE OPEN SPACES OF DEBATE AND
INQUIRY, THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE
ENGAGED IN SHUTTING DOWN
OPPOSING VIEWS.
IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR
SOMEONE, DON'T GO TO THE TALK.
I UNDERSTAND THAT.
>> RIGHT.
>> BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THERE
ARE PEOPLE OUT HERE WHO ARE
HOLDING VIEWS THAT QUESTION THE
DIGNITY AND STANDING OF PEOPLE
WHO INHABIT THESE SPACES.
WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?
IF YOU CALL INTO QUESTION THE
UNDERLYING VALUES AND
COMMITMENTS THAT MAKE
UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES WORK,
THAT IS THAT EVERYONE HAS EQUAL
STANDING AND DIGNITY AND THAT IS
THE HEART OF OPEN AND FREE
INQUIRY, IF SOMEONE COMES IN
USING THOSE VALUES TO CALL INTO
QUESTION THE VERY VALUES, WE
THREATEN HAVE VERY FOUNDATION OF
WHAT WE DO IN UNIVERSITIES AND
COLLEGES.
THAT'S
THAT'S THE DANGER, THE TIGHT
ROPE WE'RE WALKING HERE.
WE CAN'T ALLOW ANY KIND OF
SPEECH.
WE DON'T DO THAT IN OUR
POLITICS.
WE HAVE TO BE THOUGHTFUL IN THIS
MOMENT ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES
BECAUSE THERE ARE AUTHORITARIAN
VOICES, FOLKS TRYING TO SO MANY