This Court. Mar a Lago in court.
Trump advisers very much by surprise.
They had been believing the idea
that the grand jury was out for a month,
which was widely reported
You know, it was
it was not entirely clear
whether that was going to be the case.
And as it turns out,
it was not based on our reporting.
You know, they are in something of shock.
I think they will move
past that fairly quickly.
I think you will see
Trump get very aggressive about Bragg.
We don't know
exactly what the charges are yet.
So that
has an element of uncertainty to it.
But this is not a moment
Donald Trump wanted.
It's an appointment
in a moment
that he's been avoiding for many, many,
many decades.
Is being indicted criminally.
It may help him politically, Wolf.
There are reasons to believe
this case in particular
could with his base.
But nobody wants an indictment.
And Donald Trump is not an exception
and now this sets in motion
a series of actions.
Yeah, you're absolutely right, Maggie.
And no one wants to be criminally charged
with an indictment.
And now the former president,
United States,
is about to be criminally charged
with an indictment.
Durham Eyes and you're our legal analyst.
Walk us through
what Trump should now expect
Well, Wolf,
Trump will
now need to
will receive the indictment
and he will need to decide
if he is going to show up and plead,
as almost every defendant does
or if he's going to fight it.
You've heard the reporting
that he will show up.
But, Wolf, what he should speak
expect is the treatment
that any defendant gets
when they're accused of a serious crime.
And all indications here are that
this is no mere salacious
hush money account.
This is allegations
of keeping false books and records
in order to conceal a campaign financed.
These payments were done in part
at least, to aid the campaign.
If that is how it develops,
that's a felony in New York, Wolf.
And it's a serious matter
given the closeness
of the 2016 election,
a serious democracy matter.
So he should expect
to be treated accordingly.
He'll be treated
like any American citizen
if he's formally criminally charged
with an indictment.
Maggie Haberman,
let me get your
your thoughts
I know you got to run soon,
but tell me what else
Trump will be doing as we anticipate this
these charges will be presented to him
very, very soon.
Sure.
Wolf, they're still
digesting the news down at Mar a Lago.
They really were caught very much
by surprise
by the fact of this happening.
I can't stress that enough.
Now, will come the
you know,
the delicate arrangements
around a surrender,
which, you know, Trump's
lawyer, Joe
Tacopina, said he is going to do it
willingly.
We have heard that from other people
around him as well.
With Trump,
you obviously never know
surrender in any form.
It's not something
Donald Trump likes to do,
I think, let alone this one.
But that is where we are going to
go with this next.
And that will,
I suspect, happen in the coming days.
And I think Trump will,
you know, try to use the weekend
to sway public opinion
as much as possible.
That's his go to move, Wolf.
It has always been
his goal to move
is to try to shape public opinion
and use that, of course, events.
He was trying it
with what was essentially
an intimidation campaign
against Alvin Bragg
in the last two weeks.
It clearly did not work.
Certainly did not work.
This indictment
about to be formally presented
to the former president
of the United States.
And you're in New York, Maggie.
I take it
security has been beefed up dramatically
over these past several days.
Well, security
had been beefed up
and then it seemed
as if it had receded a bit.
I there were some reports a little bit
earlier today
that there might have been
some increase happening.
I certainly expect
if it has not happened already.
It will in the coming days,
because nobody knows
how this is going to play out.
I will note that,
you know, Trump
previously called on his supporters
to protest,
you know, Take Our Nation
Back was the quote that he put on social.
Very few people showed up to protest
because very few people,
you know, wanted to
to do anything
to jeopardize themselves,
especially after the January
six attack on the Capitol.
That could change
with the actuality of an indictment.
That's what
a lot of this has depended on,
because Trump's supporters
have heard so many times for the last,
you know, six years
that he was in trouble
and then he wasn't.
I think that this just didn't
feel like a reality.
And we'll see if now it does.
You've covered Trump for years.
Imagine you know him well.
How much is this bruise?
Is ego
especially unfolding in his backyard
of Manhattan
I think two things, Wolf.
I think there's no question that,
you know, for
somebody who made his bones in this city,
his image, you know, was was built
brick by brick.
Of news stories in this city.
He considered Robert
Morgenthau, one of Alan Brags,
predecessors, a personal friend.
He was very clear about that
with me in an interview
that I did with him for a book
I wrote about him.
I think this has a very
significant effect.
I also think that, you know,
he was very, very
he was horrified,
for lack of a better word,
watching Allen Weisselberg,
his former chief financial officer
at the Trump Organization,
taken away by officers
when he surrendered when he was indicted.
20. 21.
And you know, Allen
Weisselberg is about Trump's age,
I think a little bit
a little bit younger.
And Trump is not looking forward to this.
I think there is a real world
effect here.
And then there is the internal effect
Yeah.
Well, can I just add to that, that moment
with Allen
Weisselberg is something
that Trump has brought up
repeatedly in private,
noting the fact that it was someone
that he had known and worked with
for such a long
time, was part of his organization
for such a long time.
They had a storied history together,
and to watch what happened to him,
I think, really shook Trump.
I mean,
he often brought it
up, still brings it up to this day,
not just publicly on social,
but at dinners and private dinners
with friends and private conversations.
Thompson
talking about his own investigation.
So it is a moment
that actually shook him.
And I do think that is something
that he has been considering
and thinking about in recent weeks
as this has become
a very real reality for him,
that this is also something
that could likely to happen to him,
that this arrest,
this indictment is something
that was in his future
and they were bracing for it last week.
They kind of
had been under this impression
done at Mar a Lago that it could happen
any moment.
They were making the preparations
for what that would look like.
It seemed to hit a lull.
And Trump
has this idea
sometimes that if he goes and speaks
or if he speaks publicly about something,
that he can bend things toward his will.
I think you saw that
at his rally in Waco, Texas,
as he spent
a large chunk of time
talking about these investigations
and talking about how he believes he's
been treated unfairly.
He even briefly entertained
the idea of going
before the grand jury,
something that no attorney
would recommend for their client,
because he does have this idea
that he can shape people's opinions
and change their views on things.
Obviously, that has not happened here.
And there are big questions
about what the
this case actually looks like.
Going forward.
It's not a slam dunk, as you've heard
from many legal experts.
But the idea that
this is actually happening,
I think, is something
that they had tried to push off
for as long as possible.
You know,
they tried and tried and tried,
but they clearly now have failed.
This criminal indictment
is about to be presented to Trump
and the legal process will move
forward very, very serious
developments as well.
Sean, Will, you're a former prosecutor.
Walk us through
what Trump should now expect
Well, not to expect
that his
lawyers are going to have to arrange
for him to do a self surrender.
And this question
of whether he does a big publicity stunt,
will they perp walk?
That's something
that they'll have to work out
a little bit.
I don't think that's going
to be completely in his control.
It's going to be between
the DA's
Secret Service,
New York Police Department.
I just want to say, you know, what
Caitlin was pointing out about him being
so affected by Weisselberg,
I just find it interesting.
He didn't seem to be so moved
or pained by Michael Cohen
actually going to jail.
For this very crime.
And it's Cohen
now is going to be a central witness
against him.
And he is going to have to be faced
with the question of
how does he prepare for this reality
with his legal team?
I mean, will
they even consider a guilty plea
if something is offered?
We don't really know how much leverage
the D.A. has on him.
He's going to learn
that when they get a copy of
the indictment,
the movement we've been hearing
about the possible second charge
with McDougal,
even what we've heard
about possible pressure on Weisselberg.
We don't know
if that's already been charged
and even if it has.
And, of course,
there's still the possibility
of a superseding indictment.
So now that this first step
has been taken,
it's a lot of pressure
that's just going to keep on
rolling down towards him.
And indeed, Sharon,
it's just the first step.
Criminal indictment of Trump.
But the charges,
we don't specifically know.
We haven't
been briefed on that yet,
but I assume we will be getting
that information fairly soon.
But then the prosecutors have been having
the district attorney Shan.
They have to prove the case.
And by all accounts,
that's not necessarily going
to be all that simple, is it?
Well, I think
the factual part of proving
it is relatively simple.
I mean, they've got
the documents to show it.
They've got Michael Cohen to corroborate
that and explain how it happened.
They have pecker possibly,
and they also may have Stormy Daniels.
I think what you're alluding
to, Wolf, is the question of
how persuasive can all that be?
And so when you have somebody
like Michael Cohen,
who has some baggage,
she has a conviction,
always they are attacked.
He's been quite consistent,
although rather verbose.
He's been quite consistent.
There's also an inherent bias towards
someone like Stormy Daniels.
I mean, she's female,
She's in the adult film industry.
And so the prosecutors will be worried
about overcoming that bias, too.
But it's not a factually difficult case
to put forth.
But there are some credibility humps
they have to get over.
And I would also expect
that Trump's team will try to come up
with just a avalanche
of pre
trial type motions, trying to knock down
some of the legal theories
from a legal standpoint
once we know what they are.
I assume
and I correct me if I'm wrong
the district attorney
and the other prosecutors in Manhattan
right now, they are they
they must believe they have a slam
dunk case
because, you know,
formally charged
criminally charge
a former president of the United States,
unless you're 100% convinced
you've got the evidence to win
Absolutely.
I think they
are 100% convinced
that they can prove
this case beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm sure they wouldn't agree
it's a slam dunk case.
Nothing ever is
when you have to go before a jury.
But I'm quite positive
that they think they have a very strong
case in terms of evidence.